I haven’t been keeping up with this conversation but one thing people forget with Mutombo is he was the second best player on a Finals team. He averaged 16.8 PPG, 12.2 RPG and 2.2 BPG at age 35 against Shaq in the peak of his prime.
Rudy Gobert sucks at basketball
- Thread starter YoungJefe
- Start date
And Gobert would have crushed those numbers.
He did. I was rooting for Philly (as was probably most everyone here). While Mutombo dropped 16.8 ppg in the finals, he was also playing 41.6 mpg. That would convert to 14.5 points per 36 minutes. Obviously Mutombo was eating up almost all the minutes at the 5, Shaq was playing 45 mpg that series. The other bigs on Philly were Matt Geiger, averaging 10.7 mpg and scoring 17.5 points per 36 minutes, and Todd MacCulloch who only played 6.3 mpg but scored 14.9 points per 36 minutes. Todd MacCulloch is more relevant because the following year, he was the starting center for New Jersey when they got swept by the Lakers in 2002. MacCulloch played 18.3 mpg in that series and averaged 14.8 points per 36 minutes. NJ's other big was rookie Jason Collins, who played 19 mpg and scored an anemic 8.1 points per 36 minutes.
But this is neither here nor there. Nobody was knocking Mutombo and none of this is discounting what Mutombo does. The discussion about Mutombo started because someone said that Rudy's decline is overstated and that he'd probably age similar to Mutombo, who was "a really solid player into his mid 30's." Someone responded to that to say that it was a different game and that "the days of Mutombo or Eaton plugging the lane in late career looks different with today's athletes and spacing." This then led a different response that stated "Mutombo had a significantly better offensive game than Rudy, for one he had a jump hook." I objected to this idea, noting that Rudy’s offense on paper is 25-30% better than Mutombo, a pretty big disparity for a claim that Mutombo’s offense was “significantly better” than Rudy’s, to which the argument then pivoted to stating that it would be doubtful that Rudy could score in double figures in the 90s. After that ensued a larger analysis that couldn’t support that argument even with the most generous of interpretations.
The bottom line is that there’s a recency bias and an availability bias at play here. People are freshly (and more frequently, as they watch Jazz games) exposed to Rudy’s flaws, so the idea that Mutombo’s offensive game was “significantly better” than Rudy’s sounds and feels right to some without appealing to any kind of objective measure beyond a sentiment of a recent distaste for Rudy’s offensive game and being about 15 years removed from seeing any relevant raw Mutombo footage. I don’t believe people would have realized how drastically different the numbers really are between the two of them, even after correcting for pace and any other variable. If people had seen or known that, I don’t believe anyone would have made the arguments that got us to this point, and I don’t believe anyone would try to pivot the argument to him not being able to drop double figures in the 90s. Ostertag dropping 11+ points per 36 minutes in his first two years is the nail in the coffin on that argument. But what’s been said is what’s been said so the argument is being made more palatable by appealing to more and more esoteric and untestable ideas.
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Gobert isn’t even going to be a starter when he’s 35 let alone the second best player on a Finals team.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
Gobert not being a starter at 35 is an opinion right or wrong who knows. But I think there’s a good chance that if you switch 35 year old Dikembe Mutombo for 35 year old Rudy Gobert, he’s the starter on that specific team. It’s not hard to think that he would start over Geiger and McCullough.
Really bad take. Mutombo was very inefficient in the post, including his jump hook. And rudys roll game was elite while muyombo’s was pedestrian
Yeah but Shaq sucks at basketball.
If Mutumbo had to guard the area of space Gobert had to guard the modern era, he wouldnt last to 35.
JimLes
Well-Known Member
I'm someone old enough to have seen Deke's entire career, and yes, I'm often the old man who yells at cloud about how the NBA was better in my day.
But man, even I have to admit, when faced with actual video evidence, that basketball was pretty pedestrian 20 years ago,
Here's a video of the entire game 2 of those Sixers-Lakers finals. I don't wanna cherry pick, so I just watched the first 5 minutes of the game. To make things simpler, let's just focus on the Sixers' defensive possessions.
1st: Shaq is parked on the edge of the paint and Mutombo never actually leaves the pain. He just goes to the paint after the tip off and waits. Remember that this is right before the NBA introduced defensive 3 second rule. Like, 2 months before. Shaq eventually gets the ball and Mutombo manages to force him into an awkward hook that he misses.
2nd: The Lakers get a defensive rebound and Mutombo is only crossing into the Lakers halfcourt when Fisher goes up for the layup.
3rd: Deke stays with Shaq in the usual spot(edge of the paint, about 7-8 feet from the basket) and doesn't move. Neither does Shaq. Kobe scores on a pull jumper.
4th: After Deke hits a free throw, the ball is inbounded to Fisher who just goes coast to coast. Deke actually gets back and meets him at the FT line, but then just lets him go right by him without even swiping at the ball. Fisher beats two other Sixers at the rim to score.
5th: After a Lakers rebound, Deke runs back to "the spot." The Lakers have numbers but Shaq is leisurely walking up the court and it's 2001 and no one dares shoot a three on a sort-of-fast-break. The Sixers player guarding Horace Grant goes to double on Shaq eventually, leaving Grant open for an 18-foot jumper. He airballs it.
6th: The Lakers finally try to get the ball to Shaq in the key, but McKie comes to help and pokes it away so Shaq has to gather outside the key. He passes to Kobe who misses a close range jump shot.
7th: After a made basket, Kobe takes it up quickly and goes to the basket. Tyrone Hill fouls him in the act of shooting. Mutombo and Shaq are in "the spot" on the opposite side of the paint. Mutombo has Shaq sealed but does not try to help Hill.
8th: Kobe attempts a strange lay-up alley-oop lob to Fox who just misses. There are no Sixers defenders under the basket as Fox slipped behind them and Mutombo leaves Shaq entirely too late to help.
9th: Deke walks down with Shaq to the spot, and then does a good job of boxing Shaq out when a shot is missed. Sixers get the rebound.
10th: The usual. Both centers are in the spot for the first 20 seconds of the Lakers' possession. This time, the Lakers get it to Shaq who spins away nicely and hits a nifty hook.
11th. This time, after establishing himself in the spot, Shaq moves across the paint without the ball and a pass intended for him goes out of bounds off Deke's fingertips. Not sure he knew much about it. The Lakers inbound, take two poor shots, get offensive rebounds both times, and Shaq gets fouled going up for a dunk.
Now, I'm not talking here about who's better, Deke or Rudy. Comparing players from different eras and issues that arise from it are a matter for a different discussion. What I am talking about is the difference in how much they were asked to do.
Mutombo was asked to be glued to Shaq, and he does that. He often moves no more than 2-3 feet during an entire defensive possession because Shaq only moves 2-3 feet. Same thing happens in reverse. Shaq did not set a single screen during these 5 minutes. Deke set one on the other end early on, but his teammate neither took the open shot nor passed the ball immediately nor drove to the basket. It's really crazy watching this in 2023. Dude sets the screen, ball handler gets open and he just continues dribbling as if nothing happened.
You really get to appreciate how much modern centers are asked to do and how much ground they have to cover. You also realize why you aren't going to see Nikola Jokić or Embiid or anyone play 45 minutes a game in the Finals.
The game was just so different then. Players were asked to do different things, and if you're a center, you were asked to do less. I don't think anyone could argue otherwise watching this.
But man, even I have to admit, when faced with actual video evidence, that basketball was pretty pedestrian 20 years ago,
Here's a video of the entire game 2 of those Sixers-Lakers finals. I don't wanna cherry pick, so I just watched the first 5 minutes of the game. To make things simpler, let's just focus on the Sixers' defensive possessions.
1st: Shaq is parked on the edge of the paint and Mutombo never actually leaves the pain. He just goes to the paint after the tip off and waits. Remember that this is right before the NBA introduced defensive 3 second rule. Like, 2 months before. Shaq eventually gets the ball and Mutombo manages to force him into an awkward hook that he misses.
2nd: The Lakers get a defensive rebound and Mutombo is only crossing into the Lakers halfcourt when Fisher goes up for the layup.
3rd: Deke stays with Shaq in the usual spot(edge of the paint, about 7-8 feet from the basket) and doesn't move. Neither does Shaq. Kobe scores on a pull jumper.
4th: After Deke hits a free throw, the ball is inbounded to Fisher who just goes coast to coast. Deke actually gets back and meets him at the FT line, but then just lets him go right by him without even swiping at the ball. Fisher beats two other Sixers at the rim to score.
5th: After a Lakers rebound, Deke runs back to "the spot." The Lakers have numbers but Shaq is leisurely walking up the court and it's 2001 and no one dares shoot a three on a sort-of-fast-break. The Sixers player guarding Horace Grant goes to double on Shaq eventually, leaving Grant open for an 18-foot jumper. He airballs it.
6th: The Lakers finally try to get the ball to Shaq in the key, but McKie comes to help and pokes it away so Shaq has to gather outside the key. He passes to Kobe who misses a close range jump shot.
7th: After a made basket, Kobe takes it up quickly and goes to the basket. Tyrone Hill fouls him in the act of shooting. Mutombo and Shaq are in "the spot" on the opposite side of the paint. Mutombo has Shaq sealed but does not try to help Hill.
8th: Kobe attempts a strange lay-up alley-oop lob to Fox who just misses. There are no Sixers defenders under the basket as Fox slipped behind them and Mutombo leaves Shaq entirely too late to help.
9th: Deke walks down with Shaq to the spot, and then does a good job of boxing Shaq out when a shot is missed. Sixers get the rebound.
10th: The usual. Both centers are in the spot for the first 20 seconds of the Lakers' possession. This time, the Lakers get it to Shaq who spins away nicely and hits a nifty hook.
11th. This time, after establishing himself in the spot, Shaq moves across the paint without the ball and a pass intended for him goes out of bounds off Deke's fingertips. Not sure he knew much about it. The Lakers inbound, take two poor shots, get offensive rebounds both times, and Shaq gets fouled going up for a dunk.
Now, I'm not talking here about who's better, Deke or Rudy. Comparing players from different eras and issues that arise from it are a matter for a different discussion. What I am talking about is the difference in how much they were asked to do.
Mutombo was asked to be glued to Shaq, and he does that. He often moves no more than 2-3 feet during an entire defensive possession because Shaq only moves 2-3 feet. Same thing happens in reverse. Shaq did not set a single screen during these 5 minutes. Deke set one on the other end early on, but his teammate neither took the open shot nor passed the ball immediately nor drove to the basket. It's really crazy watching this in 2023. Dude sets the screen, ball handler gets open and he just continues dribbling as if nothing happened.
You really get to appreciate how much modern centers are asked to do and how much ground they have to cover. You also realize why you aren't going to see Nikola Jokić or Embiid or anyone play 45 minutes a game in the Finals.
The game was just so different then. Players were asked to do different things, and if you're a center, you were asked to do less. I don't think anyone could argue otherwise watching this.
JimLes
Well-Known Member
Oh, and something I forgot. So, obviously, Shaq was larger than life back then and the biggest threat on that Lakers team and all that. It makes perfect sense to have Deke glued to him. Let someone else beat you.
But that's Shaq. In conference finals that year, for example, they played the Bucks. It went 7 games, as did the previous round against the Raptors. Now, the Bucks didn't have Shaq. They had Ervin Johnson and Scott Williams. Each took 5 shots a game that series, and not all while guarded by Mutombo, who did play 45 minutes a game. Johnson had one(!) assist all series and Williams 5. Not even one a game combined. Ask yourself how much ground Deke had to cover in that series.
But that's Shaq. In conference finals that year, for example, they played the Bucks. It went 7 games, as did the previous round against the Raptors. Now, the Bucks didn't have Shaq. They had Ervin Johnson and Scott Williams. Each took 5 shots a game that series, and not all while guarded by Mutombo, who did play 45 minutes a game. Johnson had one(!) assist all series and Williams 5. Not even one a game combined. Ask yourself how much ground Deke had to cover in that series.
LogGrad98
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Great post. It also reminds you what an absolute freak Chamberlain was, because if anyone has watched many of his games you know he didn't do a ton of standing around. The dude basically invented help defense and was in multiple positions on most plays hence why he lead the league in assists. Crazy.
I still think a huge part of the problem is the Wolves don’t know how to use Rudy. He wastes time with every move still thinking about what he’s supposed to do instead of moving instinctually.
That’s how he’s “lost a step”.
That’s how he’s “lost a step”.
No, he legitimately lost a step. He lost it his last year in Utah.
His last year in Utah he stopped jumping to challenge shots and would just use his reputation to alter shots. I think the NBA scouted that and the following year they started to attack him with more confidence knowing he's not getting up for blocks anymore.
SoberasHotRod
Well-Known Member
Offensively, part of the reason he struggled was because of the Wolve's rosters and schemes. Once they acquired Mike Conley he looked a lot better offensively.
Defensively I don't think you can blame it on the Wolves. He clearly wasn't right physically.
SoberasHotRod
Well-Known Member
I agree with this for the most part, but would say it has been a gradual decline in physical ability for a couple of seasons. I think last year he clearly looked worse than the year before. One of the things he was amazing at was being able to defend multiple actions in the same possession, and I rarely saw him do that last year. I think it was the physical that affected the mental, but he didn't seem right mentally either. He looked much less aggressive and confident than I have ever seen him.
gomretat
Well-Known Member
The reason Mutombo had better scoring numbers was because of how different the style of play was in that era. He was not better offensively than Rudy.
Crazy that another team built itself completely around Gobert even with its existing superstar, which allowed him to win another DPOY. And here we thought only Utah would fully cater to him while snubbing the real star on the team. Crazy.
The record books will remember him as a great defender but will forget about the systems that sacrificed everything for his stats.
HermanG
Well-Known Member
Who is stopping Minny this year tho? If they win a chip, it will all be worth it no matter what happens going forward.
Cleveland