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  1. #151
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    It's that disagreement that made it obvious. So, by all means, expound on that, then. Tell us how broken families came about as the cause of poverty, as opposed to a symptom of it, and what you think is the real reason for lower marriage rates. I'm all ears. Prove me wrong.
    Glad to see that guilty until proven innocent is still alive and well on the board.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    Glad to see that guilty until proven innocent is still alive and well on the board.
    I'm just following evidence. If you have a better explanation for thems saying that they have cause and effect properly attributed, I'm all ears.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

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  3. #153
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    I'm just following evidence. If you have a better explanation for thems saying that they have cause and effect properly attributed, I'm all ears.
    No. You are just following what you want them to mean.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

  4. #154
    Senior Member margodydek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    It's that disagreement that made it obvious. So, by all means, expound on that, then. Tell us how broken families came about as the cause of poverty, as opposed to a symptom of it, and what you think is the real reason for lower marriage rates. I'm all ears. Prove me wrong.
    I'm not going to prove anything. You think the chicken came first and I think the egg did - I don't think I'm going to change your mind to reflect my opinion.

    I obviously don't think it's a black (pun) and white scenario, but I'm just not of the opinion that people who grow up in impoverished areas don't have their agency. I'm sure I'm going against the grain (which in turn makes me a bigot), but I just don't like the excuse that high crime or poor education are results of poverty. I believe that crime and poor education are results of poor choices. Case in point - I have a friend who grew up in Brooklyn. He went to a public high school which was about 60% black and about 30% white (mostly Jewish of course). They all came from rather humble neighborhoods, but guess who had a higher drop out rate.

    Last I heard about 70% of African American children were born to unmarried women, but last I checked African Americans don't have a monopoly on growing up in poverty.

  5. #155
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by margodydek View Post
    I'm not going to prove anything. You think the chicken came first and I think the egg did - I don't think I'm going to change your mind to reflect my opinion.

    I obviously don't think it's a black (pun) and white scenario, but I'm just not of the opinion that people who grow up in impoverished areas don't have their agency. I'm sure I'm going against the grain (which in turn makes me a bigot), but I just don't like the excuse that high crime or poor education are results of poverty. I believe that crime and poor education are results of poor choices. Case in point - I have a friend who grew up in Brooklyn. He went to a public high school which was about 60% black and about 30% white (mostly Jewish of course). They all came from rather humble neighborhoods, but guess who had a higher drop out rate.

    Last I heard about 70% of African American children were born to unmarried women, but last I checked African Americans don't have a monopoly on growing up in poverty.
    Don't you consider it unfair to judge those raised in high crime areas, malnourished, with very few role models, where everyone who is remotely successful and could lift the community a little moves away instead, where even poorer immigrants move in and take all the remaining jobs for less pay, where retailers run from your neighborhoods and take those jobs with them, where violence is rampant, and where no matter how hard you try in school you will most likely be met with no reward?

    Crediting every human with their agency does not mean we can judge everyone by the same standards or expect remotely similar outcomes of choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by margodydek View Post
    You think the chicken came first and I think the egg did
    In this case, the egg (poverty) came a decade before the chicken (unmarried women).
    No Mediocrity

  6. #156
    Senior Member margodydek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    Don't you consider it unfair to judge those raised in high crime areas, malnourished, with very few role models, where everyone who is remotely successful and could lift the community a little moves away instead, where even poorer immigrants move in and take all the remaining jobs for less pay, where retailers run from your neighborhoods and take those jobs with them, where violence is rampant, and where no matter how hard you try in school you will most likely be met with no reward?

    Crediting every human with their agency does not mean we can judge everyone by the same standards or expect remotely similar outcomes of choice.



    In this case, the egg (poverty) came a decade before the chicken (unmarried women).
    I'm never going to say this is what I would do if I were in so-and-so's situation. I have no idea what it's like to live in a high crime/impoverished area, so who's to say what I'd do. But to address your last sentence, what about those poor Jewish communities?

    I guess to sum up my feelings, do I think that poverty/malnourishment could in turn result in more unmarried women? Sure. But I don't think it should. And I know what the common response to that is - "well that's easy for you to say", and you know what? You're probably right.

  7. #157
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    Okay, margodydek must be an alias of carolinajazz.

    Yes One Brow, you can say it now. After the last few posts, I don't see how there could be any doubt.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    No. You are just following what you want them to mean.
    When you come up with an alternative reasoning, let me know. The marks my third post that I'm willing to listen to such. So far, instead of offering some actual non-racist reasoning, you've just complained about my conclusion. Complaints and protestations are not convincing.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

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  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by margodydek View Post
    I'm not going to prove anything. You think the chicken came first and I think the egg did - I don't think I'm going to change your mind to reflect my opinion.
    Of course not. I've spent too much time around actual people to think there is some sort of cultural impetus against marriage. Now, you could possibly convince me that your reason for think some such impetus exists in not rooted in your assumption of some fundamental difference between black and white people.

    Quote Originally Posted by margodydek View Post
    Case in point - I have a friend who grew up in Brooklyn. He went to a public high school which was about 60% black and about 30% white (mostly Jewish of course). They all came from rather humble neighborhoods, but guess who had a higher drop out rate.
    I heard that some guy who came from a broken home became President. I guess coming from an intact home isn't important, right? Or, do you only accpet anecdotes as evidence when they support your position?

    Quote Originally Posted by margodydek View Post
    Last I heard about 70% of African American children were born to unmarried women, but last I checked African Americans don't have a monopoly on growing up in poverty.
    So, what do you think changed in the 1960s?
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

  10. #160
    Senior Member margodydek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaltyDawg View Post
    Okay, margodydek must be an alias of carolinajazz.

    Yes One Brow, you can say it now. After the last few posts, I don't see how there could be any doubt.
    [in pouty voice] OK fine, One Brow, you can say it.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by margodydek View Post
    But to address your last sentence, what about those poor Jewish communities?
    YOu think being Jewish in the US is comparable to being black?
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

  12. #162
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    YOu think being Jewish in the US is comparable to being black?
    Depends on exactly what we are comparing.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

  13. #163
    Senior Member margodydek's Avatar
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    Let me see if I can explain myself. Do I think that one day black people just up and decided it was against their best interest to get married? Absolutely not. Do I think that they are currently in their situation as a result of discrimination? Absolutely. So I do think racism has caused a good chunk of blacks' present problems, I still think only black action (behavior) is going to provide a solution.
    Last edited by margodydek; 10-25-2012 at 02:54 PM.

  14. #164
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by margodydek View Post
    But to address your last sentence, what about those poor Jewish communities?
    A lot of Jewish success has been accredited to their strong community bonds. They pay for each other to go to top schools and are well networked across many economic sectors. Nepotism helps. Many African American communities are detached from the labor force and have few guides to help them into a successful career. Racism and segregation in the 1960's and 1970's deepened their detachment from the workforce, especially in skilled occupations.

    I'm also going out on a limb by suggesting that these Jewish communities you allude to don't have a severe male:female imbalance. There aren't enough viable men in many African American communities due to death and incarceration. This leaves the marriage viable men with plenty options and thus less urgency to tie down a marriage partner down.
    No Mediocrity

  15. #165
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    The first page of this thread... I can relate to the desire to help those in need but I have a hard time understanding the hubris that comes with these views that unconditional assistance = good or unconditional tough love = good. Why can't we, as a nation, study the problem through instead of coming up with some fairy dust that a huge new voting block on one side or the other will magically fix our problems?

    Go ahead and free this voting block or expand restricting it. Either way you are not helping the political party that your innitiative is meant to.
    No Mediocrity

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