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  1. #151
    Moderator Revolution 9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    The same ones paying for Medicaid.
    Do you see them as one in the same?
    "Hayward can be a #1?"......"Maybe if he goes down to Fort Wayne...DLeague" -ESPN

  2. #152
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolution 9 View Post
    Do you see them as one in the same?
    Are you asking in an always sense? No of course not. There are always exceptions. But I think a good portion of them are.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by larryselbows View Post
    You see, your perspective comes completely from a utilitarian point of view.
    I don't think you understand what "utilitarian" means. My expectations that licensed professional will adhere to the standers of the profession in which they have been licensed has nothing with a cost-benefit analysis, and everything to do with notions of trust and vunerability.

    Quote Originally Posted by larryselbows View Post
    I think it comes down to this, do you value a Utilitarian approach to healthcare or do you value personal religious freedoms?
    With freedom comes responsibility. If the exercise of your freedom of religion means you can't responsibly be a doctor, don't be a doctor.

    If your doctor converted to being a Christian Scientist, would if be okay with you if they refused to suggest medically indicated surgeries? What should be the burden on you to keep track of this?
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scat View Post
    Businesses will find a way around such an onerous tax as Obamacare and in many cases to the detriment of the very people that Obama thought he was helping. Businesses are in business to make money, not to provide employees with health insurance.
    I agree Obamacare is a poor way of handling healthcare. Hopefully, it will lead to something more efficient, such as removing healthcare from being the responsibility of employers.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

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  5. #155
    High Definition Gameface's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    I agree Obamacare is a poor way of handling healthcare. Hopefully, it will lead to something more efficient, such as removing healthcare from being the responsibility of employers.
    It pains me to say, but if we're not going to go with a system where each person can buy their own health insurance for a reasonable rate and if the government is going to be involved anyway single payer makes the most sense.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolution 9 View Post
    Who pays for the people that show up to the ER with no insurance?
    Some of it is government coverage, some of it is built into the contracts the hospitals make with insurance companies.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    It pains me to say, but if we're not going to go with a system where each person can buy their own health insurance for a reasonable rate and if the government is going to be involved anyway single payer makes the most sense.
    Sometimes pain is good for you.

    I still think the best option for our country would be something close to the German model. Government pays, but private insurance companies administrate, and people choose whihc private company ot use. Bonuses get awarded for good management of the population and for taking on people with chronic conditions. Employers don't have devote HR staff to insurance care.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

  8. #158
    High Definition Gameface's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    Sometimes pain is good for you.

    I still think the best option for our country would be something close to the German model. Government pays, but private insurance companies administrate, and people choose whihc private company ot use. Bonuses get awarded for good management of the population and for taking on people with chronic conditions. Employers don't have devote HR staff to insurance care.
    I honestly hate that arrangement. The government giving guaranteed business to private enterprise and most likely effectively shutting the door on anyone trying to enter the market. The only thing worse is our privately run prison system that has incentive to increase our prisoner population and keeping their customers incarcerated.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    I honestly hate that arrangement. The government giving guaranteed business to private enterprise and most likely effectively shutting the door on anyone trying to enter the market. The only thing worse is our privately run prison system that has incentive to increase our prisoner population and keeping their customers incarcerated.
    I agree you would need significant start-up capital/connections to open a health insurance company within a state under those conditions, but that's already true today. I honestly thought you would be in favor of insurance companies competing with each other for direct customer choices. Prison is indeed different. Prisoners don't get to choose to which prison they are sent.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    I don't think you understand what "utilitarian" means. My expectations that licensed professional will adhere to the standers of the profession in which they have been licensed has nothing with a cost-benefit analysis, and everything to do with notions of trust and vunerability.



    With freedom comes responsibility. If the exercise of your freedom of religion means you can't responsibly be a doctor, don't be a doctor.

    If your doctor converted to being a Christian Scientist, would if be okay with you if they refused to suggest medically indicated surgeries? What should be the burden on you to keep track of this?
    I fully understand what "utilitarian" means. I just think that you and I disagree - and that's okay.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by larryselbows View Post
    I fully understand what "utilitarian" means. I just think that you and I disagree - and that's okay.
    I don't mind disagreement. However, I would like ot see your answer, or the answer of anyone else worried about the doctor's/hospital's religious freedom, to answer my question about whether their right to practice religion should be allowed to supersede the right of the patient to receive optimal care, according to the practices of the medical profession.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

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  13. #162
    High Definition Gameface's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    I don't mind disagreement. However, I would like ot see your answer, or the answer of anyone else worried about the doctor's/hospital's religious freedom, to answer my question about whether their right to practice religion should be allowed to supersede the right of the patient to receive optimal care, according to the practices of the medical profession.
    Look, if an auto mechanic doesn't want to do a front-end alignment I don't see how a customer has any right to force them to do a front-end alignment, even if that's what their car needs. The customer is free to find a new mechanic.

    If a doctor has a personal objection to performing a specific procedure or providing a certain type of care they shouldn't be forced to perform it because they are a doctor. Same for the owner of a hospital.

    How can you argue that a person should be forced to act against their will, especially when they have a moral objection to the action?

  14. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    Look, if an auto mechanic doesn't want to do a front-end alignment I don't see how a customer has any right to force them to do a front-end alignment, even if that's what their car needs. The customer is free to find a new mechanic.

    If a doctor has a personal objection to performing a specific procedure or providing a certain type of care they shouldn't be forced to perform it because they are a doctor. Same for the owner of a hospital.

    How can you argue that a person should be forced to act against their will, especially when they have a moral objection to the action?
    Being a Dr. and a mehanic are not similar. Sometimes people dont have time to dick around looking for a dr with the right religion. If it is in the best interest of the patient it should be done regardless of religion.

  15. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    Look, if an auto mechanic doesn't want to do a front-end alignment I don't see how a customer has any right to force them to do a front-end alignment, even if that's what their car needs. The customer is free to find a new mechanic.

    If a doctor has a personal objection to performing a specific procedure or providing a certain type of care they shouldn't be forced to perform it because they are a doctor. Same for the owner of a hospital.

    How can you argue that a person should be forced to act against their will, especially when they have a moral objection to the action?
    What if the person just got hit by a bus, is unconscious, rushed to the hospital in an effort to save their life, and the only hospital around is some religious hospital that doesn't believe in current medical technology?

    In just about every skilled profession there are standards that have to be met in order to get licensed. I have no problem holding doctors to standards.

    If being a doctor conflicts with someone's religious belief, then they shouldn't become a doctor.

    What's next, soldiers who don't have to kill anyone because it's against their religion?

  16. #165
    Senior Member Scat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaltyDawg View Post
    What if the person just got hit by a bus, is unconscious, rushed to the hospital in an effort to save their life, and the only hospital around is some religious hospital that doesn't believe in current medical technology?
    Do you think birth control pills would help in this situation?

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