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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by larryselbows View Post
    Not at all, if a doctor that works at non-denominational hospital, that is his/her decision, but if a hospital that is catholic owned and operated feels that this is beyond their organizations ethic code, then they should not be forced to perform abortions at said hospital.
    So, you approve of the hospital allowing patients to die rather than performing abortions?
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    Forcing a doctor to perform standard care procedures because being a doctor is serious business isn't a real argument in my opinion.
    Of course. The myth of the uber-consumer, who is always rational, and has sufficient time and resources to always make the correct decision, even about issues that professionals train in for nearly a decade. I agree it's not worth arguing over religious concepts.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    Of course. The myth of the uber-consumer, who is always rational, and has sufficient time and resources to always make the correct decision, even about issues that professionals train in for nearly a decade. I agree it's not worth arguing over religious concepts.
    I don't believe in an uber-consumer myth. People don't have to be rational or make rational decisions to validate their right to make those decisions.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by larryselbows View Post
    One Brow, this isn't an exercise in mental ************, these are real issues that have real repercussions.
    I agree. Real people die when when they get substandard care. That is completely unlike fictional gods being angry at a doctor for providing that medical care.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    I don't believe in an uber-consumer myth. People don't have to be rational or make rational decisions to validate their right to make those decisions.
    Then, who has the responsibility to make clear what is the rational choice in the doctor-patient relationship? You don't want the doctor to be required to adhere to the standards fo the medical profession. You don't think the patient should be expected know those standards. Who is left to make sure the patient knows what the best standards of care really are?
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

  6. #186
    Senior Member PearlWatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    It pains me to say, but if we're not going to go with a system where each person can buy their own health insurance for a reasonable rate and if the government is going to be involved anyway single payer makes the most sense.
    Tear up your libertarian card.
    Democrat motto:
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    Why should we work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirkickyass View Post
    Pearl is right

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by PearlWatson View Post
    Tear up your libertarian card.
    It's just an ought/is question. If I thought there was the slightest chance the U.S. would go the libertarian route I'd get behind it 100%, but libertarianism doesn't always mesh when you try to shove it into a non-libertarian system. It's sort of like trying to put diesel components on a gas car. Even if those diesel components are better than their gas engine counterparts they simply don't work when they're not part of a diesel engine.

    How's that for a stupid analogy.

    P.S. Pearl, this site is a lot less fun when our fellow posters get banned all the time.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    It's just an ought/is question. If I thought there was the slightest chance the U.S. would go the libertarian route I'd get behind it 100%, but libertarianism doesn't always mesh when you try to shove it into a non-libertarian system. It's sort of like trying to put diesel components on a gas car. Even if those diesel components are better than their gas engine counterparts they simply don't work when they're not part of a diesel engine.

    How's that for a stupid analogy.

    P.S. Pearl, this site is a lot less fun when our fellow posters get banned all the time.
    What is the libertarian route? Not being sarcastic, I'm just not familiar enough with the platform to know what they want to do with healthcare.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaltyDawg View Post
    What is the libertarian route? Not being sarcastic, I'm just not familiar enough with the platform to know what they want to do with healthcare.
    Nothing. It's super simple.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    Nothing. It's super simple.
    So basically what we had before Obamacare?

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaltyDawg View Post
    So basically what we had before Obamacare?
    No, again there's no point in saying how libertarian plans will fix one issue. I don't see libertarian ideals as something that can be added one piece at a time. Look at my analogy about the diesel engine. We can't get there from here. We would have to start over and rewrite the constitution. If you just threw health care to the wolves and called it a libertarian plan that would be dishonest.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by larryselbows View Post
    Not at all, if a doctor that works at non-denominational hospital, that is his/her decision, but if a hospital that is catholic owned and operated feels that this is beyond their organizations ethic code, then they should not be forced to perform abortions at said hospital.
    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    So, you approve of the hospital allowing patients to die rather than performing abortions?
    As it happens,

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...326575203.html

    How many people in here are relieved that those Irish doctors weren't expected to jeopardize their consciences?
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    Then, who has the responsibility to make clear what is the rational choice in the doctor-patient relationship? You don't want the doctor to be required to adhere to the standards fo the medical profession. You don't think the patient should be expected know those standards. Who is left to make sure the patient knows what the best standards of care really are?
    A true "Darwiniac" as Pearl would phrase it. . . . .is someone who is just content to let the stupids die off before reproducing, and who might even call that "progress".

    I really don't get "progressives" who want to solve everybody's problems and feel it's their social responsibility to make sure evolution stops here. . . . . lol

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  15. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I really don't get "progressives" who want to solve everybody's problems and feel it's their social responsibility to make sure evolution stops here. . . . . lol
    Social forces, like a growing sense of altruism and interdependency, are evolutionary forces.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

  16. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    As it happens,

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...326575203.html

    How many people in here are relieved that those Irish doctors weren't expected to jeopardize their consciences?
    That's really a tragedy, I feel for the husband and his family.

    One Brow, I realize that our discussion has deteriorated from a open discussion where we consider one another's points, to simply poking holes in one another's arguments, so I'm going to finalize my participation in this discussion by saying that I appreciate where you're coming from, I really do. In no way am I condoning a Catholic State in the United States, rather I am simply saying that people should have the right to follow their own religions - as stated in the first amendment - and I realize that we're probably not going to agree on this point. Luckily, in the United States that woman would have been able to get the treatment she needed from doctors that would have been comfortable doing the procedure, which is a comforting notion to me.

    The original intent of this thread is to discuss various points and the specifics of the Affordable Care Act and I propose that we get back on track!

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