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  1. #31
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJAS View Post
    I would drop dead from shock if I heard Corbin say anything this detailed and logical! The girl from Jazzfanatical highlights the phrases "keep working" and "get better" every time he gives a statement or answers any question. It's alarming how often he uses these phrases and his young players seem to follow suit.
    The PC from sports personnel can get plenty nauseating. What I wouldn't give for the players union to strike over freedom of speech. I genuinely appreciate guys who speak their mind in the heat of the moment. I'm a fan of a lot of the things D-Will did as I viewed them as his passion for winning. PC has taken that aspect away and it truly is sad.

    One thing Sloan did well--over time--is convey why he made the tough choices that fans often got irate over. Those explanations won over the hearts of many doubters. Corbin thus far has been pretty damn aloof and detached in his responses. Even so, I hesitate to throw stones at the guy because he's in a really difficult spot. Is he supposed to come out and declare that he wants to transition away from Jefferson/Millsap and toward the young guys? That would absolutely kill team chemistry and convey weakness to the market about AJ and Sap's value to the franchise.

    Corbin really is stuck in a hard spot on every angle I've looked at it this team. He's doing his best to move away from the thing we all hate the most which is black hole Jefferson-centric ball. He doesn't have the luxury of a dominant point guard to do this with & is clearly trying to go the next step by bringing Hayweird along to initiate the offense. Hayweird is inconsistent and incredibly frustrating at times though, and Mo Williams has plenty of limitations in addition to his propensity for chucking up volumes. The way I see it, Jazzfanz has been killing Corbin for remaining silent and holding his head high. He can't just come out and say "What the bleep do you people want me to do? Jefferson is inefficient in the low post and not dynamic enough to spread a team game further out. I don't have a point guard capable of doing the things Williams did within Sloan's version of Flex, I don't have a dominant 2 or 3 to run other offensive sets through, & our wing 3 point shooting is highly suspect at times if not always. This team is seriously ****ed people! Open your damn eyes to that fact. We've tried to sub in Favors, Kanter, and Burks, but they are just too damn raw and make as many mistakes as they get lost."

    So there you have it. These are the reasons I don't feel right blaming Corbin for anything. He's a smart guy and it's not incredibly difficult to learn to copycat the offensive geniuses of the last 70 years. Corbin knows all the sets and can revert to a playbook in the case he doesn't. The guy has reasons for why he's not doing this or that, we just don't know them. Do we really think the Jazz organization hired a guy who didn't show Sloan of all people that he was capable of understanding plays in depth? After all, Corbin was in H.C. discussions a couple years before Sloan's departure. Who do we think gave Corbin a stamp of approval?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hack View Post
    Of course no blame is to go on the Jazz FO for making the coaching staff and player personnel decisions. I never once hear anyone criticize KOC or Randy Rigby. Everyone thinks is solely on Corbin for the playing time issues with the young guys. I dont think its that simple. I think Corbin is doing the best he can considering everything that is on the table.
    So start a thread on it. Who knows, maybe Freakazoid will show up to fight Gameface on the integrity and implications of taking a few steps back to move many more forward. Maybe some posters will chime in on their love for the winning mentality and others the desire to shoot for the stars. Yeah, I'm pretty sure we haven't had any discussions on the F.O.'s vision -- you should start this up a.s.a.p.
    No Mediocrity

  2. #32
    Senior Member JimLes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    One thing Sloan did well--over time--is convey why he made the tough choices that fans often got irate over. Those explanations won over the hearts of many doubters. Corbin thus far has been pretty damn aloof and detached in his responses. Even so, I hesitate to throw stones at the guy because he's in a really difficult spot. Is he supposed to come out and declare that he wants to transition away from Jefferson/Millsap and toward the young guys? That would absolutely kill team chemistry and convey weakness to the market about AJ and Sap's value to the franchise.
    I very much agree with this. Corbin is in a tough spot because he succeeded a guy who had been coaching this team since before MC Hammer was big. On one hand, of course he can't come out and say everything he's thinking because the FO would not want him showing the cards, but on the other hand, he doesn't have the same level of authority that Jerry had established over the years. With Jerry, after all those years, you learned to trust his judgment even if you didn't know what exactly he was thinking. You just had faith that he knew. With Corbin, you don't have the benefit of a couple of decades of astute decisions. It's just that Corbin hasn't really earned that trust and authority yet.

  3. #33
    Senior Member JJAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    The PC from sports personnel can get plenty nauseating. What I wouldn't give for the players union to strike over freedom of speech. I genuinely appreciate guys who speak their mind in the heat of the moment. I'm a fan of a lot of the things D-Will did as I viewed them as his passion for winning. PC has taken that aspect away and it truly is sad.
    I agree with much of what you said above and most of us have no desire to acknowledge the difficulty of his situation. So when do you let a guy go? How do you even measure what Corbin is doing if you pull the Corbin's-in-a-tough-situation card? Are there better coaches out there, or is he the best we can get? He's the guy running the show. The great leaders of the world should get all the credit in the world when they succeed, but they sure as hell should be criticized every damn day of their life until they obviously show mastery of their craft or sphere. I agree that we should give him some time, but we should by no means speak with hushed tones when Corbin is near like he's a Byzantine emperor. I like a lot of things about Corbin and am willing to give him even this entire season to see what he can do. However, I didn't join Jazzfanz to remain quiet about the head coach of my team--there you have it.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    This play drives me bat **** crazy & I've been vocal about it going back to the San Antonio series. Al Jefferson is not efficient enough in the low post to run this play from the 1. Why the hell aren't they running motion to send the ball in from the 2 or 5 so they're already moving & opening options? This play only works with extremely good post play, and even then shouldn't be used as the primary option. Sloan didn't nearly as much as we act like he did. Instead, Malone came baseline across a screen a lot for entry pass position and was a PnR threat as well. Going one to five with the point guard running through leaves no other options other than a very quick catch 'n' jack 3, and the Jazz are fresh out of Hornacek right now. STOP RUNNING THIS STUPID ****ING PLAY WITH MORE THAN 8 SECONDS ON THE SHOT CLOCK! (wait, that's what Corbin has said he's trying to do)
    I'm not a hundred percent sure I'm following you. Our base offense (when we're not running PnR's), from what I see, starts with Mo at the top (or the 1). We run flex cuts with baseline crosses under the basket which get Al set and Mo usually passes off to the wing on his side. He then proceeds to run through the lane, pretends to set a screen, and pops back up on the arc opposite the post. Once the wing dumps to the post, which is often nearly at the top of the key, Al is stranded with the ball on the block. He's got one wing guy to pass to (sort of), and 3 other guys stationary on the other side of the key. So his only option is to score or pass out.

    If we had a designed cutter to the hoop, or opposite side screens sending guys through the lane, or perimeter players sliding along the arc into his field of vision, he would always have options. But the key to making any post player a good passer is predictability. If they know shooters at the arc are in certain spots or a cutter is coming, then they'll know those options are there and won't be surprised when they magically pop up. When we had AK and Brewer, we never had to worry about cutters. And Boozer was a magically better passer with them than he has been with Chicago.

  5. #35
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    But how much of that is on Ty?

    Deron, AK, Brewer and Boozer were a lot more intelligent (and talented) than what the Jazz put out there right now.
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  6. #36
    In pursuit of #9 PKM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    I'm not a hundred percent sure I'm following you. Our base offense (when we're not running PnR's), from what I see, starts with Mo at the top (or the 1). We run flex cuts with baseline crosses under the basket which get Al set and Mo usually passes off to the wing on his side. He then proceeds to run through the lane, pretends to set a screen, and pops back up on the arc opposite the post. Once the wing dumps to the post, which is often nearly at the top of the key, Al is stranded with the ball on the block. He's got one wing guy to pass to (sort of), and 3 other guys stationary on the other side of the key. So his only option is to score or pass out.

    If we had a designed cutter to the hoop, or opposite side screens sending guys through the lane, or perimeter players sliding along the arc into his field of vision, he would always have options. But the key to making any post player a good passer is predictability. If they know shooters at the arc are in certain spots or a cutter is coming, then they'll know those options are there and won't be surprised when they magically pop up. When we had AK and Brewer, we never had to worry about cutters. And Boozer was a magically better passer with them than he has been with Chicago.
    Burks? Nevermind.
    #dumptruckin

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    The PC from sports personnel can get plenty nauseating. What I wouldn't give for the players union to strike over freedom of speech. I genuinely appreciate guys who speak their mind in the heat of the moment. I'm a fan of a lot of the things D-Will did as I viewed them as his passion for winning. PC has taken that aspect away and it truly is sad.

    One thing Sloan did well--over time--is convey why he made the tough choices that fans often got irate over. Those explanations won over the hearts of many doubters. Corbin thus far has been pretty damn aloof and detached in his responses. Even so, I hesitate to throw stones at the guy because he's in a really difficult spot. Is he supposed to come out and declare that he wants to transition away from Jefferson/Millsap and toward the young guys? That would absolutely kill team chemistry and convey weakness to the market about AJ and Sap's value to the franchise.

    Corbin really is stuck in a hard spot on every angle I've looked at it this team. He's doing his best to move away from the thing we all hate the most which is black hole Jefferson-centric ball. He doesn't have the luxury of a dominant point guard to do this with & is clearly trying to go the next step by bringing Hayweird along to initiate the offense. Hayweird is inconsistent and incredibly frustrating at times though, and Mo Williams has plenty of limitations in addition to his propensity for chucking up volumes. The way I see it, Jazzfanz has been killing Corbin for remaining silent and holding his head high. He can't just come out and say "What the bleep do you people want me to do? Jefferson is inefficient in the low post and not dynamic enough to spread a team game further out. I don't have a point guard capable of doing the things Williams did within Sloan's version of Flex, I don't have a dominant 2 or 3 to run other offensive sets through, & our wing 3 point shooting is highly suspect at times if not always. This team is seriously ****ed people! Open your damn eyes to that fact. We've tried to sub in Favors, Kanter, and Burks, but they are just too damn raw and make as many mistakes as they get lost."

    So there you have it. These are the reasons I don't feel right blaming Corbin for anything. He's a smart guy and it's not incredibly difficult to learn to copycat the offensive geniuses of the last 70 years. Corbin knows all the sets and can revert to a playbook in the case he doesn't. The guy has reasons for why he's not doing this or that, we just don't know them. Do we really think the Jazz organization hired a guy who didn't show Sloan of all people that he was capable of understanding plays in depth? After all, Corbin was in H.C. discussions a couple years before Sloan's departure. Who do we think gave Corbin a stamp of approval?



    So start a thread on it. Who knows, maybe Freakazoid will show up to fight Gameface on the integrity and implications of taking a few steps back to move many more forward. Maybe some posters will chime in on their love for the winning mentality and others the desire to shoot for the stars. Yeah, I'm pretty sure we haven't had any discussions on the F.O.'s vision -- you should start this up a.s.a.p.
    Al's touches are way down. We're not going in to the post nearly as much as we used to. That's fine if there's a another plan. But that plan appears to be running more PnR with Mo which is currently our worst offensive play. Maybe that will get better, time will tell, but the early returns aren't good. (And as a digression, we're letting Mo run the offense like an All Star, not the serviceable starter he is.)

    My problem is not the first offense. Whether it's the post or PnR's, the quality of an offense is determined by what it can do when the first 12 seconds don't work out. In the past, we got so many options off our first sets that the backside of the shot clock took care of itself. We would scramble teams and produce buckets with time expiring like the Spurs are famous for.

    Now, we're defenseless when the shot clock dwindles to 10. The 1st option offense fails because it doesn't have nearly enough movement or cutters. Then we have no idea how to reset. In the good old days, you got the ball back to Deron (or Stock) and he figured it out. What happens now is a guy like Foye gets the ball at the 9 second mark, plays with the ball, and shoots it.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    But how much of that is on Ty?

    Deron, AK, Brewer and Boozer were a lot more intelligent (and talented) than what the Jazz put out there right now.
    I think it's all on Ty. The wings we have may not have the natural cutting instincts like AK or Brewer, but they don't ever do it. I can't think of a reason why they don't, and I doubt Marvin and Hayward are so substantially worse than Brew/AK that Ty scrapped the idea at the drawing board stage. On the flip side, Boozer is not a substantially better passer than either Al or Sap as his Chicago numbers would indicate (notwithstanding his nice early run this year.) And by my observation, Boozer's assist numbers clearly went down once he didn't have the luxury of Jazz cutters he could depend upon.

  9. #39
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    Boozer is not a substantially better passer than either Al or Sap as his Chicago numbers would indicate
    Is a guy who averages 19.5 points per 36 minutes not generally a substantially better scorer than a guy scoring 15 per 36 with more field goal attempts (if their minutes are in the same ball park)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    But it's all on Ty? The Jazz don't have anyone who can figure it out with a short shot clock. Mo may compete harder and more consistently than Devin, but Devin's a superior facilitator/creator (and he's not particularly good anymore).

    As much as it pains me to say it, given the Jazz's perimeter talent, Al should be getting the ball more in the post.
    I assume you meant Deron. And yeah, the luxury of the old Jazz teams was having Deron to fix late clock ugliness. But late clock ugliness shouldn't have to come down to a star (although it's really nice to have). I completely agree with you that if we're not going to have a plan to reset the offense, the best move is to get it to Al.

    But I'd still like our first half shot clock offense to work better. And whether it's Al or Sap, going to the block for 3/4 of the offense is still the best move. Just give them an offense to play in, not make them have to score. And by all means, play matchups like we should have done the other night exploiting Terry with Hayward. Or, even better, picking an Al/Sap matchup on the block night to night. We have the talent to hurt teams on offense, we just don't do it.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    Is a guy who averages 19.5 points per 36 minutes not generally a substantially better scorer than a guy scoring 15 per 36 with more field goal attempts (if their minutes are in the same ball park)?
    Sure. But I'm talking about passing.

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    Just riffing, but the Hayward thing last night really bugged me. It brought back memories of how we misused AK for so many years. With Terry on Hayward, the focus should have been posting Hayward. The key is not Hayward drilling Terry for buckets. Hayward's not actually that great a post player. But that's a fantastic vantage point to pass which he is good at. It's just like the Hawks used to use Joe Johnson who always posted. If you give Hayward a cutting pass option while he's posting, he might be a lot better as a post player.

  14. #43
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    I assume you meant Deron. And yeah, the luxury of the old Jazz teams was having Deron to fix late clock ugliness. But late clock ugliness shouldn't have to come down to a star (although it's really nice to have). I completely agree with you that if we're not going to have a plan to reset the offense, the best move is to get it to Al.

    But I'd still like our first half shot clock offense to work better. And whether it's Al or Sap, going to the block for 3/4 of the offense is still the best move. Just give them an offense to play in, not make them have to score. And by all means, play matchups like we should have done the other night exploiting Terry with Hayward. Or, even better, picking an Al/Sap matchup on the block night to night. We have the talent to hurt teams on offense, we just don't do it.
    I meant Devin. Deron was in another league during his Jazz tenure than either Mo or Devin.

    And I agree.
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  15. #44
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    Sure. But I'm talking about passing.
    Alluding to Chicago-era Boozer averaging 28% more assists per 36 than Utah-era Jefferson, despite getting a lower percentage of his team's possessions (should have used 19 v. 15 pp36). Boozer's stats still indicate he's a substantially better passer than Jefferson.
    Last edited by GVC; 11-16-2012 at 12:17 AM.
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  16. #45
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    Just riffing, but the Hayward thing last night really bugged me. It brought back memories of how we misused AK for so many years. With Terry on Hayward, the focus should have been posting Hayward. The key is not Hayward drilling Terry for buckets. Hayward's not actually that great a post player. But that's a fantastic vantage point to pass which he is good at. It's just like the Hawks used to use Joe Johnson who always posted. If you give Hayward a cutting pass option while he's posting, he might be a lot better as a post player.
    Not to mention that a predictable/one-track offense is going to run into trouble at the end of close games (and in the playoffs) when defenses tighten.
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