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  1. #31
    Admininstrator colton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post
    Hopefully you give me enough credit to know that one's ability to "run and not be weary" will not always hinge on what one takes into one's body. I was referring, of course, to those who are just plain out of shape, due to bad diet and lack of exercise. I know plenty of mormons like this. But if you were to ask them if they live the word of wisdom, most would answer affirmatively, without hesitation. To me this is an issue. That certain aspects of the WoW don't carry the same weight as others (no pun intended...)
    I understand. I agree--but I see this more as the failings/frailties of individual church members than as a failing of the commandment itself. And it seems that whenever I've heard general conference talks on the topic, they have emphasized the "do"s as well as the "don't"s, and have talked about healthy living in general.

    As far as barley drinks go, on my mission we were instructed to drink a common barley tea (a hot drink, frequently), in lieu of water, so I am aware of barley based drinks that exist, but I have been unable to find evidence of common beverages that would have been made by the people of that time and place other than "beer" and "small beer" (a beer with around 1% alcohol).
    Yes, "small beer" or something with a minimal alcohol content seems very possible to have been what Joseph Smith would have been referring to with the "mild drinks", if not completely non-alcoholic. I don't know enough about historical beverages to say whether completely non-alcoholic drinks would have been around much.

    And while I understand that alcohol may have been needed for preservative purposes, if distillation technology was there, why not just produce potable water?
    They could have produced it, but I'm not sure if they could have stored or transported it. Probably not, I think. I've never researched this, but I doubt that bottling technology was very advanced back then. They would have had no idea of germ theory, so they wouldn't have understood that completely sealing potable water from outside contaminants would keep it potable.

    Lastly, and this is my biggest hangup, is that all my life I have been taught that God is unchanging - the same yesterday, today, and forever. But the WoW doesn't reflect this. I understand that as mankind and society expand and evolve, some things need to accommodate. The Law of Moses, for example. But to me, the WoW seems like it should be straight forward, and that there is no need for it to apply differently to various generations of the church. From the get go, God could say "Don't consume this, and this, and this..." But perhaps I'm looking at this too simplistically.
    God is unchanging, but people and societies change. Therefore I think it's reasonable that God's directions to us will be tailored to the society in which we live. That's a major issue I have with people (some born-again Christians, for example) who feel that the Bible is the sole and complete word of God--just to take one quick example, Paul specifically tells the people (Corinthians, I think) not to let women speak in church. Well, that may have been appropriate for their society, but I don't believe that's what God wants for our society. So, to me, continuing revelation makes perfect sense, even if it leads to one group of people receiving slightly different commandments than another group. Sure, the biggies will stay the same--love your neighbor will never go away :-)--but things like modifying the WoW to now be a complete prohibition on alcohol/coffee/tea don't bother me too much. And I think someone else has already brought up drugs like heroin & LSD which didn't even exist in Joseph Smith's time.
    "Giving to the poor is an essential part of Christian morality. I do not believe one can settle how much we ought to give. Im afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare... If our charities do not at all pinch or hamper us, I should say they are too small. There ought to be things that wed like to do but cannot do because our charitable expenditure excludes them." --C.S. Lewis
    :-)

  2. #32
    Admininstrator colton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarteBlanche View Post
    Conversely, maybe this avoidance is a test of strength and character, and less of a lifestyle suggestion. In that case, maybe it IS best to just avoid it at all costs.
    Your comment reminds me of another point I should make to Bronco.

    Although a large part of the WoW is teaching us to live healthily by avoiding bad substances and using good substances, I think this aspect of developing strength and character is also part of it.

    And more than that, I really think that the commandment has been given to us so that we would stand out from the crowd and be a "peculiar people". In that sense, it's a lot like the kosher commandments for Jews. Thinking of pork in particular... Yes, back in the day eating pigs could well have made you sick--but why didn't God just teach the people in the Old Testament how to properly clean the pigs rather than commanding them to not partake of pork at all? I think it was in large part so that they would be different from others--special, if you like. That was a sign of them being God's covenant people.

    Having the WoW as a commandment to God's covenant people today (as we LDS see ourselves)--having a group of people who all refrain from smoking, drinking, etc.--serves a similar purpose.* Or so it seems to me. Some more food for thought for you.

    * I've never thought of this before, but this actually seems to make perfect sense with the gradual switch to the absolute prohibitions during the period from 1850-1920. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, there was plenty else to make the LDS distinctive--they lived mainly in their own communities, many practiced polygamy, etc. But in the early 20th century they stopped with polygamy, didn't ask people to move to Utah, and so forth. So perhaps that has something to do with why the WoW became absolute prohibitions over that time period rather than just suggested guidelines.
    "Giving to the poor is an essential part of Christian morality. I do not believe one can settle how much we ought to give. Im afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare... If our charities do not at all pinch or hamper us, I should say they are too small. There ought to be things that wed like to do but cannot do because our charitable expenditure excludes them." --C.S. Lewis
    :-)

  3. #33
    Member Maktub's Avatar
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    I live in Washington. What about the occasional marijuana brownie? It's legal, and not included in the items that are strictly prohibited. Seems to me that the church either needs to address this, or consider it a personal choice, similar to caffeine.

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  5. #34
    Senior Member infection's Avatar
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    There are a lot of different issues to discuss but I'll try to keep it short and not expound much more than Colton already has.

    It's quite frequent that we tend to look at the WoW simply as a "law of health" which often tends to miss the mark. There's also too much culture embedded into what we understand the WoW to be that we often end up attacking our own faulty understandings of the WoW rather than attacking the WoW itself. I think it's best understood from a distance so we can appreciate it a bit better. The best way to do this is looking back in the past for different commandments God has given. The easiest example would be the Law of Moses and the portion of it that forbids the consumption of pork products, as this is a readily understood idea. When we look at it in hindsight, we clearly see it simply as a commandment that God gave and that people were to follow. We generally don't tend to find justification for the reasons it was given but just accept that it was something that was part of a covenant between God and Israel and not that there was something inherently unholy and unrighteous with pork products. In our day, we have a tendency to rationalize things to determine whether or not we follow them (i.e. you always hear people talking about all the reasons to keep the WoW based on 'science' or what have you). When we look at the WoW through the lens of health only, we've already missed the mark -- just as you would miss the mark in ancient Israel if you focused on the health implications of abstaining from pork products -- neither one of them are solely concerned with those goals as a primary purpose. We also tend to try to verify (or invalidate) the WoW based on some type of arbitrary definition of 'health' with whatever passing research is going on. The fact that we view the WoW as primarily health related, and we verify it with scientific data, puts us on shaky ground and subjects us to whatever discoveries are made regarding any portion of the WoW. "A glass of wine is good for this..." "Coffee can prevent gallstones..." "high calorie diets make you fat" etc., etc. All of these examples miss the mark much as in the same way the command to abstain from pork was not about keeping cholesterol levels low nor about preventing the spread of trichinosis, though those may have been desirable byproducts of keeping the command.

    The bigger issue isn't whether or not beer is worse than coke or if smoking can calm agitation in schizophrenics more than Jelly Beans, the bigger issue is whether or not we're honoring covenants entered into. Yes, it's not good to stuff your face with cream pie, but these are separate issues that need teasing apart rather than blurring them together to obscure the focus and never gaining an appreciation of the WoW as a covenant (like the Law of Moses) rather than exclusively some type of Dr. Oz health advice to improve your stamina and libido.
    Last edited by infection; 11-17-2012 at 10:28 PM.

  6. #35
    Senior Member TheSilencer1313's Avatar
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    I was baptized LDS, and have been in and out of the church my entire life (mostly out).
    I've read many times that wine used to be allowed to be drank at baptism services, and coffee wasn't even an issue.
    Joseph Smith then decided on these issues after many members were drinking too much and getting drunk at church.
    "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson

  7. #36
    Senior Member Zulu's Avatar
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    Just want to shout out to my boys Chris and PKM!! Chris your definitely one of the best dudes I know, and have been blessed to know you for as long as I have!!

    PKM, I've only known you for a short time,but I respect you far more than many people I've know for my whole life!! You have the right attitude about life and respect all people for who they are, something we all could learn from ya!!

    To everyone else who has given some insight of the subject I appreciate your comments and interpretations of the WOW (especially infection)... I just may take elders quorum of tomorrow!
    http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o604/sainsbu/ProfessionalTank_zps6f4cddad.png

  8. #37
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris-L View Post
    Even my LDS neighbors won't let their children be friends with my children because choices me and my wife make that do not align with what they believe.
    That really is a bitch but it's not too hard to deal with really. Invest a few Sundays each year going to church and look at it as a neighborhood meet and greet. They'll get to know you and start seeing you as a real person. Pretend interested too. Before you know it your neighbors will be begging their children to befriend yours as a missionary effort.

    The best thing about this is there's a good chance they won't want their children going to your house while wanting yours at theirs. While some might get offended by this, I see it as a blessing sending the havok elsewhere. & I really have no problem with someone who doesn't want their children around beer drinking. It doesn't bother me one bit when my neighbors don't want their children inside my house as I really don't want them here either.
    No Mediocrity

  9. #38
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Well Chris I would dang sure allow mine to play with yours. The type of people that wont their kids play with yours is the type of mentality that is dangerous to the church.
    #BelieveInLindsey

  10. #39
    Free at last!!! bigb's Avatar
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    I've never understood the whole not letting your member kids play with non-member kids. How does that follow the teachings of Christ?

  11. #40
    Senior Member Chris-L's Avatar
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    @ franklin. thanks for the advice, sincerely, but we have decided it would just be easier to move.

    @ stoked. i have an 8 yo girl, 7 yo boy, 6 yo girl, and 2 yo girl. you got my number, hit me up for a playdate anytime. we are moving over the next few weeks so things will be crazy for a while, but if our kids are close in age we should def make it happen sometime.

    @ zulu. BFF league 4evar

  12. #41
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris-L View Post
    @ franklin. thanks for the advice, sincerely, but we have decided it would just be easier to move.

    @ stoked. i have an 8 yo girl, 7 yo boy, 6 yo girl, and 2 yo girl. you got my number, hit me up for a playdate anytime. we are moving over the next few weeks so things will be crazy for a while, but if our kids are close in age we should def make it happen sometime.

    @ zulu. BFF league 4evar
    Your 8 and 6 year old would be right in line with mine at 9 and 5. I'll give you a few weeks to get relocated and we can see about heading down for a saturday.
    #BelieveInLindsey

  13. #42
    In pursuit of #9 PKM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    That really is a bitch but it's not too hard to deal with really. Invest a few Sundays each year going to church and look at it as a neighborhood meet and greet. They'll get to know you and start seeing you as a real person. Pretend interested too. Before you know it your neighbors will be begging their children to befriend yours as a missionary effort.

    The best thing about this is there's a good chance they won't want their children going to your house while wanting yours at theirs. While some might get offended by this, I see it as a blessing sending the havok elsewhere. & I really have no problem with someone who doesn't want their children around beer drinking. It doesn't bother me one bit when my neighbors don't want their children inside my house as I really don't want them here either.

    I usually like your posts, Frank, but not this one. I have no interest in faking my kids and family to acceptance. I may have read it all wrong and it's also possibly we just disagree, but if I read it right .. I hated it.
    #dumptruckin

  14. #43
    In pursuit of #9 PKM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    Your 8 and 6 year old would be right in line with mine at 9 and 5. I'll give you a few weeks to get relocated and we can see about heading down for a saturday.
    I have a 9, 5, and 2 as well .. group text.
    #dumptruckin

  15. #44
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    I've never understood the whole not letting your member kids play with non-member kids. How does that follow the teachings of Christ?

    To me it actually goes against the teachings of Christ.
    #BelieveInLindsey

  16. #45
    Admininstrator colton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    I've never understood the whole not letting your member kids play with non-member kids. How does that follow the teachings of Christ?
    +1

    And for someone like me, who had nearly only nonLDS friends growing up (in Maryland), it's especially mysterious.
    "Giving to the poor is an essential part of Christian morality. I do not believe one can settle how much we ought to give. Im afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare... If our charities do not at all pinch or hamper us, I should say they are too small. There ought to be things that wed like to do but cannot do because our charitable expenditure excludes them." --C.S. Lewis
    :-)

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