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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKM View Post
    I usually like your posts, Frank, but not this one. I have no interest in faking my kids and family to acceptance. I may have read it all wrong and it's also possibly we just disagree, but if I read it right .. I hated it.
    This. Why would you even want your kids to be friends with a kid whose parents are like that?

  2. #47
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKM View Post
    I usually like your posts, Frank, but not this one. I have no interest in faking my kids and family to acceptance. I may have read it all wrong and it's also possibly we just disagree, but if I read it right .. I hated it.
    As far as "faking my kids and family" goes, I never said to take them along or not.

    The rest--fair enough. You weren't raised LDS so I'd offer different advice to you...advice that isn't anywhere near as relatable. Modify it to occassionally attending the dominant neighborhood function & letting everyone know you're there to befriend neighbors and that's all. Knowing Mormons, a couple are still going to chase after you so beware. IMO, there's no sense in not accepting that we all live within a culture and doing stuff like this if we want our children to blend in with society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    This. Why would you even want your kids to be friends with a kid whose parents are like that?
    I live in Utah County, home of BYU. It's probably hard for most to relate to the religious dynamic here. My children..every child..needs to be friendly with those around them. Is it really that horrible for me to give a little extra effort to show my community that I'm not a scary evil satan worshipper?

    I also would like my children to appreciate and be friends with other children whose parents I don't care for. How are we supposed to change the world for the better with your mentality of boxing off children of those who you see as terrible people?
    No Mediocrity

  3. #48
    In pursuit of #9 PKM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    As far as "faking my kids and family" goes, I never said to take them along or not.

    The rest--fair enough. You weren't raised LDS so I'd offer different advice to you...advice that isn't anywhere near as relatable. Modify it to occassionally attending the dominant neighborhood function & letting everyone know you're there to befriend neighbors and that's all. Knowing Mormons, a couple are still going to chase after you so beware. IMO, there's no sense in not accepting that we all live within a culture and doing stuff like this if we want our children to blend in with society.
    Fair enough. I think I get what you're saying. I just hate it that religious folk have gotten so self-absorbed that non-believers have to pretend. Think about that you fellow-believers .. are we doing something wrong??
    #dumptruckin

  4. #49
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKM View Post
    Fair enough. I think I get what you're saying. I just hate it that religious folk have gotten so self-absorbed that non-believers have to pretend. Think about that you fellow-believers .. are we doing something wrong??
    I was offering a [personally] convenient fix to something I saw as a terrible situation & a life story I relate to. If you don't condone pretending then cut that part out. Again, it's a very different dynamic here in UTC & I assumed from C-Lol's story something similar. For myself, as a father, I have no problem investing this little bit for the sake of my children. Is that the part you are taking issue with or is it something deeper?
    No Mediocrity

  5. #50
    In pursuit of #9 PKM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    I was offering a [personally] convenient fix to something I saw as a terrible situation & a life story I relate to. If you don't condone pretending then cut that part out. Again, it's a very different dynamic here in UTC & I assumed from C-Lol's story something similar. For myself, as a father, I have no problem investing this little bit for the sake of my children. Is that the part you are taking issue with or is it something deeper?
    Where am I taking exception with anything not outlined in my initial response? I'm on board brotha .....

    am I missing something?
    #dumptruckin

  6. #51
    Free at last!!! bigb's Avatar
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    Damn, it's too bad I don't live in STG. My kids ages are 8, 5, 2, and 1. We'd fit right in.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by colton View Post
    Your comment reminds me of another point I should make to Bronco.

    Although a large part of the WoW is teaching us to live healthily by avoiding bad substances and using good substances, I think this aspect of developing strength and character is also part of it.

    And more than that, I really think that the commandment has been given to us so that we would stand out from the crowd and be a "peculiar people". In that sense, it's a lot like the kosher commandments for Jews. Thinking of pork in particular... Yes, back in the day eating pigs could well have made you sick--but why didn't God just teach the people in the Old Testament how to properly clean the pigs rather than commanding them to not partake of pork at all? I think it was in large part so that they would be different from others--special, if you like. That was a sign of them being God's covenant people.

    Having the WoW as a commandment to God's covenant people today (as we LDS see ourselves)--having a group of people who all refrain from smoking, drinking, etc.--serves a similar purpose.* Or so it seems to me. Some more food for thought for you.

    * I've never thought of this before, but this actually seems to make perfect sense with the gradual switch to the absolute prohibitions during the period from 1850-1920. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, there was plenty else to make the LDS distinctive--they lived mainly in their own communities, many practiced polygamy, etc. But in the early 20th century they stopped with polygamy, didn't ask people to move to Utah, and so forth. So perhaps that has something to do with why the WoW became absolute prohibitions over that time period rather than just suggested guidelines.
    Interesting take.

  8. #53
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    Damn, it's too bad I don't live in STG. My kids ages are 8, 5, 2, and 1. We'd fit right in.
    Come on down. Better weather here. Plus my kids understand a few Spanish words.
    #BelieveInLindsey

  9. #54
    Free at last!!! bigb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    Come on down. Better weather here. Plus my kids understand a few Spanish words.
    Maybe in the winter, but definitely not in the summer.

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  11. #55
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    Maybe in the winter, but definitely not in the summer.
    There is more than 1 southern Utah town.
    #BelieveInLindsey

  12. #56
    In pursuit of #9 PKM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    There is more than 1 southern Utah town.
    LOL

    @bibg - Yeah, come on down..
    #dumptruckin

  13. #57
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    @Bronco70

    I hope you don't mind, but I copied your OP and emailed it to my business partner who I respect a great deal and serves in the bishop ric (my other partner is a stake prez .. but not as esy to talk to, imo). Anyway, this was his response to me.

    "I share a lot of sympathy with many of this brother's points. The WofW is a minor doctrine that gets the attention it gets only because its infraction is so visible and obvious. That said, this brother forgets the scripture that says we should not need to be "commanded" in all things; after all we all have the light of conscience to help us make rational, common-sense decisions, and there isn't much debate among the scientific community about the health benefits of living the WofW.

    But the brother misses the most important point: the WofW has evolved to become the symbol of outward obedience, and infractions against it are seen as theologically insignificant but as indicative of a rebellious spirit with regard to submitting to authority, and that submission is important in a hierarchically organized bureaucracy that has to know its members' reliability at following instructions.

    All that said, I have been in wards where members with WofW "problems' have been called, even to the office of bishop, so I think most wards do keep a proper perspective about these matters.




    And speaking personally I haven't divorced Sue even though she continues to drink Coke! "
    #dumptruckin

  14. #58
    Senior Member Xsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post
    First off, I would like to respectfully request that this thread doesn't derail/devolve into an argument about the truthfulness or accuracy of the LDS faith, God, or organized religion in general. That has been discussed ad nauseum in multiple other threads. My intent is not to question the validity of the church, but rather to gain some specific insight from other perspectives.

    So you understand, I'm happy in the church. I fulfill my calling, pay my tithing, do my home teaching, etc. This works for me, and my family, and I don't have any qualms with the basic doctrine, either. I have several minor issues with the culture that has evolved within the membership, particularly in Utah, but this is generally of little consequence in regard to my faith. I also have major questions about blacks and the priesthood, but have already pursued that to a dead end. I don't believe I will ever find a satisfying answer in this life. As it was "corrected", I'm willing (begrudgingly) to let it be, for now.

    The Word of Wisdom, however, has me more than a little baffled. Basically, my concerns are related to interpretation of the WoW, and how it has evolved.

    1. Is the WoW a commandment? It's taught as a commandment, and adherence to it is required to gain admission into an LDS temple. But verse 2 reads:



    That seems pretty clear cut to me. What am I missing?

    2. The membership seems to practice (and the authorities allow) selective obedience. Within the WoW, there are several items which are obeyed with militant zeal, while others are acknowledged, but largely disregarded. I find it funny, in a sad way, that some are willing (eager) to thrust judgement and derision on someone who would, say, start his/her morning with a cup of coffee, then discuss (read: gossip) the matter of the sinner's damnation with other pious souls over a double cheeseburger and triple thick Oreo shake. Hypocrisy, really. The Wow promises:



    So, essentially, if you cannot "run and not be weary", you aren't living the WoW correctly.

    3. Interpretation of the relative importance of the WoW has changed over the course of the history of the church. There is plenty of documentation that the WoW was initially observed casually, not only by the membership, but by church authorities, including the prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. B.Y. encouraged the membership, if they were going to break the WoW, they should at least profit in it also.

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...hamtobacco.htm

    Also, I have read (I don't have any links to back this, nor do I know it to be 100% accurate) that the supplies "punch list" that was given to members preparing to trek across the plains included coffee.

    4. Beer.



    I apologize of I'm overlooking something, but exactly what "mild drink", made from barley, are we talking about here? I know that mormons owned and operated breweries and wineries in the early history of SLC (well after the WoW was received). And that, historically, beer is considered a mild drink. Perhaps, I'm totally in left field with this one, so any insight is appreciated.

    For the record, I have not taken my concerns directly to my bishop. He is truly a nice guy, very understanding and compassionate, but I feel like I already know what he's going to tell me. I have, however, taken the matter to God. I have been praying about it, with real intent, that I would understand and/or be able to see some sense and consistency in it. So far, I haven't. But I plan on staying with that tactic for a while.

    Like I said, my overall faith is not going to be shattered over this. And there are other questions which may be even more important. But this is what is nagging at me right now. TIA.
    Whether you like the wording or not, the prophet of your church speaks directly to god. If you question him, you're questioning god.

    What does the prophet say about the word of wisdom?
    http://jazzfanz.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1889&dateline=1332058703

  15. #59
    world's worst Bronco70's Avatar
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    I was hesitant to start this thread, for several reasons, but I'm glad I did. It has assisted me much more than I expected. You guys helped me approach my questions from a different angle, and provided a lot of insight. I thank you all for your input.

  16. #60
    Senior Member CONAN's Avatar
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    Word o Wisdom, like tithing and other stuff, is more about obedience than anything else. There's the set in stone stuff and then there's a huge grey area. Moderation is a factor but not the end all be all. But it is interesting that the Church banned smoking way before anyone knew it was harmful. But that's mostly irrelevant.

    LOL at not playing with non-LDS kids. That's funny tragic.
    BYU 1984 National Champs.

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