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  1. #301
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennykyle View Post
    Wow, logic, good post.
    Yea that's what I thought. Glad you agree.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

  2. #302
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNBAnerd View Post
    probably my #3 frustration in every game (after the static offense and the lack of help D from the bigs) is foye's absolutely laughable perimeter D. so i get that foye has his weaknesses.

    but foye finds ways to contribute. carroll, who has maybe a third the talent that burks has, finds ways to contribute. marvin and gordon find ways to contribute. if burks played with that mentality -- i don't know if i'll get shots but i know what i CAN do to make the team better tonight -- he'd be playing. corbin gave him a 4-game run in the rotation to prove he's ready, but a coach can't wait around 20 minutes for you to get into a groove. take memphis - he gets 7 valuable minutes in a winnable road game against a western playoff team, and he's so invisible (0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0/2 shooting) that corbin COULDN'T go back to him in the second half. how long do you think corbin should have waited on him that night? 8 minutes? 10? 20? yet despite how bad he was that night, corbin still gave him MORE minutes in the next three games to give him a shot. the return on that investment: 7 points on 13 shots, and a guy who was either going head-down into a sea of defenders OR just standing passively around the perimeter.

    i'm not worried about burks. we have him under contract through 2014 (with the option to extend thru '15) and he's got time to grow up. but giving a guy minutes he hasn't earned can hurt him developmentally just as much as not giving him minutes at all. and right now... BURKS. HAS. NOT. EARNED. IT.
    The problem myself and other have with this whole BURKS. HAS. NOT. EARNED. IT. thing is that guys like foye, cj, bell dont seem to have to earn it.... they just get minutes cause they are vets. Foye had done nothing on the jazz to earn his minutes when game 1 of the season began.... in fact burks had played more and done more for the jazz than foye (since he was here last year and foye wasn't).
    Bell did nothing all of last year and played more than burks.
    CJ did nothing but suck for like 7 years.
    So what you are saying is sucking for 7 years is a great way to earn minutes? Doing nothing for half a season (bell) is earning minutes? Getting let go by team after team (i guess cause no one wants you) like foye did is earning minutes? Alrighty then.

  3. #303
    Senior Member candrew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNBAnerd View Post
    i'm not worried about burks. we have him under contract through 2014 (with the option to extend thru '15) and he's got time to grow up. but giving a guy minutes he hasn't earned can hurt him developmentally just as much as not giving him minutes at all. and right now... BURKS. HAS. NOT. EARNED. IT.
    The final 25 games of last season Burks averaged about 18mpg, and scored about 8+ points per game at about a 42% clip. Decent numbers for a rookie - all while The Jazz were playing their best basketball of the season.

    He played in the Summer League - which he didn't have to do (see CJ Miles)

    Came to camp prepared. Obviously worked on his jumper. Had a solid preseason.

    And then gets rewarded with 3 straight DNP's over a journeyman failed PG who at best is a one-dimensional player who started the preseason missing his first 17 shots.

    Any way you want to slice it - that's a mind **** for a 22 year old kid who has been "the man" everywhere he's been up until this point.

    Is it Burks' job to get over it? Absolutely. But don't tell me this guy "HAS. NOT. EARNED. IT"

  4. #304
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by candrew View Post
    The final 25 games of last season Burks averaged about 18mpg, and scored about 8+ points per game at about a 42% clip. Decent numbers for a rookie - all while The Jazz were playing their best basketball of the season.

    He played in the Summer League - which he didn't have to do (see CJ Miles)

    Came to camp prepared. Obviously worked on his jumper. Had a solid preseason.

    And then gets rewarded with 3 straight DNP's over a journeyman failed PG who at best is a one-dimensional player who started the preseason missing his first 17 shots.

    Any way you want to slice it - that's a mind **** for a 22 year old kid who has been "the man" everywhere he's been up until this point.

    Is it Burks' job to get over it? Absolutely. But don't tell me this guy "HAS. NOT. EARNED. IT"
    Great post.
    Repped.

  5. #305
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    foye doesn't suck - but he knows his limitations and finds ways to contribute (more often than not).

    in 47 minutes of play this season, burks has yet to do anything that convinces me that minute number 48 will be better, or 49, or whatever.

    again, he'll get it figured out. but in the meantime, it's ok to recognize that he is not playing good basketball. he's not making good decisions, he's playing too passive at times and too aggressive at other, and he's not doing any of the little things he did last year.

    when you start endowing a guy with minutes just because of where he was drafted, you wind up with the washington wizards. sooner or later, burks will figure out what CJ never did -- "hey, i can rebound, defend and hustle every night, and that way even on my 1-for-5 clunkers, coach will have a hard time sitting me down." everybody talked like you get minutes so that you can develop, and i'm not sure that's 100% right -- just as often, minutes are the result of developing yourself BEFORE game night. the players who get that are the real pros, and they're the ones that every coach rewards with minutes at the expense of guys who think "i'll get better AFTER coach gives me 20 mpg." this isn't AAU - doesn't work that way.
    check out the jazzbros.com blog for more on the jazz.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    The problem myself and other have with this whole BURKS. HAS. NOT. EARNED. IT. thing is that guys like foye, cj, bell dont seem to have to earn it.... they just get minutes cause they are vets. Foye had done nothing on the jazz to earn his minutes when game 1 of the season began.... in fact burks had played more and done more for the jazz than foye (since he was here last year and foye wasn't).
    Bell did nothing all of last year and played more than burks.
    CJ did nothing but suck for like 7 years.
    So what you are saying is sucking for 7 years is a great way to earn minutes? Doing nothing for half a season (bell) is earning minutes? Getting let go by team after team (i guess cause no one wants you) like foye did is earning minutes? Alrighty then.
    People arent getting that vets are vets for a reason, they have earned a second contract, they have proven what they can do through years of NBA experience. Its not like the Jazz have no idea what they are getting like say, Burks. Playing well in the preseason doesn't earn you anything, a lot of terrible players play well in the pre season and summer league. Doing it in practice, in the limited time in games you get, thats what earns you minutes, not being picked high, not beating up on scrubs in the pre season.

  7. #307
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNBAnerd View Post
    foye doesn't suck - but he knows his limitations and finds ways to contribute (more often than not).

    in 47 minutes of play this season, burks has yet to do anything that convinces me that minute number 48 will be better, or 49, or whatever.

    again, he'll get it figured out. but in the meantime, it's ok to recognize that he is not playing good basketball. he's not making good decisions, he's playing too passive at times and too aggressive at other, and he's not doing any of the little things he did last year.

    when you start endowing a guy with minutes just because of where he was drafted, you wind up with the washington wizards. sooner or later, burks will figure out what CJ never did -- "hey, i can rebound, defend and hustle every night, and that way even on my 1-for-5 clunkers, coach will have a hard time sitting me down." everybody talked like you get minutes so that you can develop, and i'm not sure that's 100% right -- just as often, minutes are the result of developing yourself BEFORE game night. the players who get that are the real pros, and they're the ones that every coach rewards with minutes at the expense of guys who think "i'll get better AFTER coach gives me 20 mpg." this isn't AAU - doesn't work that way.
    You are right that he is not playing good basketball.... the question then must be asked why not?... As candrew said last year when he was getting regular minutes he was playing pretty well and more importantly the jazz were playing thier best basketball as a team.
    So maybe the answer to the question of why is burks not playing well is simply that he is not getting minutes.

    Everyone is different: demare carroll might be the type of guy who doesn't need alot of minutes to feel included and part of the team and motivated.
    Burks might be a type of person who needs to be the type of guy who nees the minutes to feel like he is a part of the team unfortunately.

    Maybe if randy foye was getting the same minutes as burks then he might be missing everything as well but we willl never know cause foye is a vet and is gauranteed minutes.

  8. #308
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennykyle View Post
    People arent getting that vets are vets for a reason, they have earned a second contract, they have proven what they can do through years of NBA experience. Its not like the Jazz have no idea what they are getting like say, Burks. Playing well in the preseason doesn't earn you anything, a lot of terrible players play well in the pre season and summer league. Doing it in practice, in the limited time in games you get, thats what earns you minutes, not being picked high, not beating up on scrubs in the pre season.
    How do you know that burks hasn't been fantastic in practice?
    I heard over the summer that no matter who the jazz put in to guard burks, no one could stop him from getting to the rim.... during practice (which is where you supposedly earn minutes right?)

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  10. #309
    Senior Member Sneakers's Avatar
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    So, Nerd, what did Foye do during the preseason to show that HE. DESERVED. MINUTES? And why does your argument keep turning to unsubstantiated claims of entitlement with regards to Burks? Amazing he didn't impress you during his 40 or so minutes of unstructured meaningless garbage time. That's less than 4 minutes a game you clutz. Hack.
    Long Live JYD

  11. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    You are right that he is not playing good basketball.... the question then must be asked why not?... As candrew said last year when he was getting regular minutes he was playing pretty well and more importantly the jazz were playing thier best basketball as a team.
    So maybe the answer to the question of why is burks not playing well is simply that he is not getting minutes.
    yeah, that's the right question to be asking... but burks is the guy who should be providing the answer, not you, not me, not corbin.

    Everyone is different: demare carroll might be the type of guy who doesn't need alot of minutes to feel included and part of the team and motivated.
    Burks might be a type of person who needs to be the type of guy who nees the minutes to feel like he is a part of the team unfortunately.
    the job os the people running this franchise isn't to make burks feel like he's part of the team. the job is to win and improve. if we start allocating minutes based on what guys need in order to feel warm and fuzzy, it's gonna be a long and painful year.

    Maybe if randy foye was getting the same minutes as burks then he might be missing everything as well but we willl never know cause foye is a vet and is gauranteed minutes.
    show me one stretch of basketball where foye played seven minutes without a point, assist, rebound, steal or block and this point will be valid. (hint: you won't find any.) again, i'm not a foye fan and i'd rather see burks playing - but this is a ridiculous point. foye doesn't make corbin wait until he's ready to prove that he's worth the minutes. that said, he has had two really bad games, and in both of those his minutes were cut severely - so even he isn't guaranteed anything.
    check out the jazzbros.com blog for more on the jazz.

  12. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneakers View Post
    So, Nerd, what did Foye do during the preseason to show that HE. DESERVED. MINUTES? And why does your argument keep turning to unsubstantiated claims of entitlement with regards to Burks? Amazing he didn't impress you during his 40 or so minutes of unstructured meaningless garbage time. That's less than 4 minutes a game you clutz. Hack.
    1) you don't earn a role in the preseason. that's not what i'm talking about when i say burks hasn't earned it.
    2) i never said that burks feels entitled to minutes. i'm saying that 98% of jazzfanz feels entitled on his behalf.
    3) we're not talking about garbage time. burks had 4 straight games where he was giving minutes during the rotation. in those 4 games, he shot 3-for-15 with a rebound every 16 minutes and an assist every 24 minutes. and on a qualitative level, he was awful in those four games too. but he'll get another shot, and i'm definitely rooting for the guy to be more ready the next time his number gets called.
    check out the jazzbros.com blog for more on the jazz.

  13. #312
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNBAnerd View Post
    yeah, that's the right question to be asking... but burks is the guy who should be providing the answer, not you, not me, not corbin.



    the job os the people running this franchise isn't to make burks feel like he's part of the team. the job is to win and improve. if we start allocating minutes based on what guys need in order to feel warm and fuzzy, it's gonna be a long and painful year.



    show me one stretch of basketball where foye played seven minutes without a point, assist, rebound, steal or block and this point will be valid. (hint: you won't find any.) again, i'm not a foye fan and i'd rather see burks playing - but this is a ridiculous point. foye doesn't make corbin wait until he's ready to prove that he's worth the minutes. that said, he has had two really bad games, and in both of those his minutes were cut severely - so even he isn't guaranteed anything.
    Actually part of the coaches job IS to get the best out of thier players.... Sometimes you have to learn personalities and insecurities of the guys on your team and learn what motivates them. (phill jackson was great at this)

    Show me a time when foye got a bunch of dnp's and then garbage minutes for this jazz team and then i might be able to show you when he misses everything and looks like crap on the court. We will never know because he is a vet and this will never happen.

  14. #313
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Maybe he is playing like crap cause maybe his coach treats him like crap

  15. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Actually part of the coaches job IS to get the best out of thier players.... Sometimes you have to learn personalities and insecurities of the guys on your team and learn what motivates them. (phill jackson was great at this)

    Show me a time when foye got a bunch of dnp's and then garbage minutes for this jazz team and then i might be able to show you when he misses everything and looks like crap on the court. We will never know because he is a vet and this will never happen.
    getting the best of your ROSTER is one thing. getting the best out of every single player by handling everybody with velvet gloves is just unrealistic, and even phil jackson knows that (he says so in his book). every team has an 11th man, a 6th man, a core, d-league guys... ty can't make his decisions based on the fact that the guy who right now looks like the 5th best wing can't play well enough to take minutes from the other 4. if there are 4 guys playing better than burks overall, then corbin IS getting the best out of his roster.

    so (re: second para) is your theory that burks is only missing shots because corbin somehow damaged him psychologically by not giving him a rotation spot right up front? cuz if so, that's an even lamer argument. this is the NB-freaking-A, if you're not ready to earn your role, you probably should get the eff out. (i'm not saying that burks' problem - but you are.)
    check out the jazzbros.com blog for more on the jazz.

  16. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Maybe he is playing like crap cause maybe his coach treats him like crap
    oh, boo-hoo. then he should find a rec league team where the coach is required to play everybody two quarters and they go out for milkshakes after. he'll get treated like a rotation player when he starts playing like a rotation player.

    funny thing is, burks knows all of this.
    check out the jazzbros.com blog for more on the jazz.

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