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  1. #1
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    Post-road trip reflections

    overall, not very pretty.

    a lot of people seem very eager to hang ty corbin out to dry. obviously he's still trying to figure out who needs the minutes to get us the wins.
    (who deserves the minutes is another thing altogether and that may not necessarily be as important in the eyes of the organisation.)

    i would argue that too many of our players are out of sync and playing without enough passion.

    i'd be interested in other people's thoughts on our playing group rather than hearing the usual 'fire jerry 2.0' rhetoric rolled out again.

    al: not our biggest problem. we still need his dependable low post scoring. makes it look easy on some nights. i also think he's playing some really good 1-1 defence. we know he's terrible defending the pick and roll - most of our guys are. he's slowly getting better at passing out of the double team, even though he can often score against it. i'm sure he'd do more passing if our wings actually spaced better or, i don't know, made smart cuts to the basket occasionally. we just don't do it. a couple of times on the trip al fed millsap under the basket for easy scores. we need more of that awareness and movement off the ball.

    millsap: seems to be either not getting many calls go his way (when has he ever?) or he is turning into one of the bigger whiners in the league. i love paul and his game and i hope we re-sign him next year but he's another one guilty of playing without enough fire on this trip. with his size and skill set he should be killing it in two-man game but it's not happening. which brings me to mo.

    mo williams: i'm blaming mo more than ty for our lack of on-court cohesion. he's a terrific player but he's not running this team at all well. too much time dribbling around outside the 3 until there's 5 seconds left on the shot clock so we (he) throws up a rushed fadeaway. on pick and rolls he almost never passes back to the bigs when they show and i think they've stopped expecting it. he's not pushing the tempo for easy scores like we saw in the pre-season. he's settling for jumpers and not driving enough. some horrible decision making at times. i don't mind him getting his shots but that alone won't win us games. he needs to run this team.

    hayward: still goes missing sometimes but i expect and allow that in young players. he's developing fine. the most promising all-round player we've had since a young AK47 in my view. stick him with the second unit, let him handle the ball and create more for himself and others and i think he'll step up.

    foye: a very useful and one-dimensional player. tries hard enough on defence but can not or will not pay attention. should've been benched for some of his recent efforts. unfortunately (or fortunately) his streak shooting has helped cover up a fairly disorganised offence. burks on the other hand looks often like he's more disorganised than anyone else out there. i've seen enough to keep hoping burks is the future and corbin needs to commit some minutes (the way he has done for favors) before we will see any of potential tapped.

    favors: i don't think he necessarily has to start but i'm glad he's getting his minutes. can really anchor this defence if he can keep the fouls down and stay on the court. offensively i'm happy to see him keep trying things with the ball in his hands (hayward too) because i think they both need to find their strengths and limitations at this level. will be interesting to see how much more he can develop his game over the course of the season. (one more thing, i know that boler and harpring bang on about it but i really don't see that his athleticism is so far off the chart. certainly he is quite agile for a big guy and he gets across the court quick enough, but when you look around the league i see a bunch of guys his size who move at least as well as him).

    kanter: in a way, he's progressing just fine as well. i'd wondered if he kept up his preseason form if jefferson might not have become expendable by the all-star break, but kanter is going to be a longer-term project. he's not ready for starters minutes. definitely looks fitter and more polished than last year but still has a fair way to go. many times when he went back to the bench i was relieved. needs more patience and awareness on offence. like the other young guys you can live with mistakes to a point, then they need to sit and watch.

    carroll: can't think of a negative. would almost rather he started ahead of marvin. in that line-up he would probably add more (especially if he could set a defensive tone), with marvin getting 25mins off the bench. is making enough shots to keep them honest. reminds me of the way millsap used to play.

    marvin: like his versatility on d but what's happened to his 3 point shot? it's getting uglier and uglier. not convinced by his post-game and fadeaway jumpshots either. he looks so much better when he attacks the rim. again, i don't know why guys like he and millsap aren't cutting and looking for feeds from the low post, or rolling hard to the basket off pick and rolls. it feels like we don't know how to run it or defend it. almost every other team in the league runs it better than we do.

    tinsley: adequate back-up point guard who looked great starting a week ago. he's fouling unnecessarily, not looking after the ball and not even getting close on his field goal attempts (although it's not as hard to watch as earl shooting). he needs to fix those 3 things.
    Last edited by salo; 11-19-2012 at 12:57 AM.

  2. #2
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    Ty made two moves that I have liked. Getting more minutes for Favors and realizing that Hayward needs to get more touches. I agree that Hayward should play with the second unit so he gets more shots and if he is playing well then he should be in the game down the stretch.

    So here are my thoughts on the team:My biggest frustration is with how the Jazz run their organization. They do many things well and have been consistently good for many years. Unfortunately, an organization needs to be great in order to win a championship. The one thing that holds back the organization is their conservative approach. When Sloan retired they just hired the next guy. Instead of looking at options outside the organization. Instead of drafting and playing their draft picks right away, they sign vets who are at the end of their career to take away valuable playing time from our drafted rookies.They still have decided if they are a running team or a S&M team. This is a big decision when making personal decisions. The Jazz as an organization need to decide who they are. Do you want to be a home for "old vets" or do you want to develop/evaluate your draft picks and allow them to become the foundation of a potential title contender? You really can't have both if you are serious about winning a championship.

    As far as the roster goes:

    Mo Williams is a nice undersized SG who can't run a half court offense. I love his grit and toughness and shooting but he looks like a dear caught in head lights trying to run the half court offense. He reminds me of a better Howard Eisley but both guys dominate the ball at the top of the key and then when they don't know what to do they chuck up a shot.

    Tinsley - love his passing but he has become a liability on the floor due to his poor shooting and bad defense. It would have been great if the Jazz could have signed a younger PG to develop. Watson is no better. When he returns Corbin will have another decision to make.

    AJ- He is just a bad fit on this team. Yes he is a very good scorer and has been rebounding pretty well but it just seems like there is no way the Jazz can re-sign him without pissing off Favor/Kanter which would lead to losing one or two of our young bigs. I just don't think AJ can be the main guy on a championship team because of his bad defense and "black hole" tendencies (I think he has improved but the offense comes to a stop many times). I take Millsap over Jefferson which is really the choice the Jazz need to make.

    Millsap - despite his bad game against Washington. I like his ability to make big shots and his overall game. I would re-sign Millsap at the right price.

    Marvin Williams needs to go to the bench. Now I see how frustrating he can be. His passiveness is the problem and I think being on the bench should help him get more offensive opportunities. I am lukewarm on him and I would most likely not re-sign him unless he picks it up.

    Carroll - has earned the right to start simply due to his hustle and the fact he doesn't need offensive touches too often. His shooting has improved and as long as he remains what he is "a hustle player" I think he deserves minutes.

    Burks - needs to play somehow. My guess is this wouldn't be an issue if they had not brought Foye to Utah.

    Foye - Not that impressed overall. Streaking shooter but his defense is overrated and he takes bad shots many times.

    Favors - keep playing him 30+ minutes and run plays for him. If he is one of the primary guys in the offense he will improve. Defensively he changes the game and for this reason he deserves to start.

    Hayward- I've been a little disappointed with his overall improvement. His shooting is still very streaky. I think Gordon is a very nice complimentary player and I feel right now his best opportunity to excel is on the second unit as a 6th man. He becomes passive when playing with the starters because Millsap, Mo, and AJ take so many shots. I liked how aggressive he was in the Washington game. If he played like that all the time I would be ok with not always gettng the best results. When he just stands around I get frustrated watching him. I still think he is a core guy and is part of the Jazz future.

    The bench - sometimes when I see the vets (AJ/Foye/Millsap/) playing like they don't give a damn, it would be nice to see some Jeremy Evans. At least Evans brings energy and usually contributes with minimum minutes. Again Burks needs to play.

    The Jazz are improved from last year but so are many other teams. Right now I see the Jazz struggling for one of the bottom playoff spots but if the Jazz don't learn to play better on the road they will be sitting home for the playoffs.

    My report is not as glowing mostly because I am more frustrated with the lack of playing time for Kanter and Burks.

  3. #3
    Senior Member LunaticWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowhide View Post
    The Jazz as an organization need to decide who they are. Do you want to be a home for "old vets" or do you want to develop/evaluate your draft picks and allow them to become the foundation of a potential title contender? You really can't have both if you are serious about winning a championship.
    Love how everyone thinks if you play/develop a pick, they will pan out.

    News Flash: After the 3-4-5th pick, 50% of the draft picks are out of the league in 3 years.
    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

  4. #4
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    The number of readable posters on this site has shrunk drastically this season. Props to lunatic and salo for making this place less retarded.

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    Senior Member Eenie-Meenie's Avatar
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    Yes, they've shrunk with the level of Jazz play. Al is the biggest problem and Foye is very close, and not only because he's prevented Burks from playing. However, Mo on this trip has got to be up there; he seems he suddenly has stopped playing like a PG, or playing like a shoot only PG who isn't making his shots. Foye sucks like I said after the first game because all he can do is shoot -- he's horrible on defense, makes bad decisions and careless passes. Al who wasn't getting much offense earlier in the season has rectified that by becoming as bad or even a worse black hole than ever, and he has stopped playing defense on the P n R. He just lets the guys go in unmolested. I guess he's worrying about fouling and missing time which will affect his stats, or maybe he has been watching film of Boozer.

    In any case, Ty could just bench Al and Foye, but no he's starting Foye now -- wtf? He also can calm down Mo and tell him to push the ball so that we can get into our sets earlier. The only time Mo seems to push of late is on the fastbreak so he can get an open shot. I think part of Millsap's problem is adjusting to the 3. And despite Tinsley's liabilities, it seems when he goes in and we're playing badly, it seems to calm things down and we start running the offense. So, he's pretty good for short bursts, but then his liabilities especially on defense seem to kick in.

    Yes, Carroll should be starting over Marvin because he's totally outplaying him. As one poster noted, he was the best player on the court against Philly, and yet Ty took him out during at crunch time -- wtf? Ty learned his lessons well Jerry -- be predictable, stick to preconceived patterns, always play the vet over the younger player, especially in crunch time.

    I haven't been reading what the beat reporters are writing of late because I have lost interest. Are they asking Ty about his rotations and substitution patterns, and why Burks isn't getting minutes and why Foye is, and why a guy like Foye who is a below average defender is guarding the other team's go-to player in crunch time?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    The number of readable posters on this site has shrunk drastically this season. Props to lunatic and salo for making this place less retarded.
    Dude, he misspelled Favors. Let's get real and talk about **** that matters.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

  7. #7
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    My main gripe with the latest road trip are:
    - when Jefferson gets the ball guards (usually it's Hayward) cut but don't actually cut hard but rather go through motions clearly showing they don't expect ball back rendering this activity useless.
    - when Kanter gets the ball down low instead of isolating him guards bring defenders to him. What they should do is leave him on weak side alone and when he starts massaging his defender guards need to get back and offer themselves.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Xsy's Avatar
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    2-2 is an adequate road record, even if both of the teams we beat had 1 overall win between them.

    The best thing that happened this road trip is the fact that Ty Corbin finally broke his mold. Even though it was an abysmal win, I can rest easy knowing that Corbin is finally ready to try something new.
    http://jazzfanz.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1889&dateline=1332058703

  9. #9
    Freelance Sperm Donor Siro's Avatar
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    Salo, does your name refer to the book or the meal?

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    I'll add my thanks for some thoughtful input - Thanks Salo and others on this thread.

    I agree with most taht has been written on the individuals, but the biggest issue at this point is the not the players individually, it is that we are struggling to run a useful offense and /or to run the offense effectively. What players on the team (in their assigned roles) don't have the ability to run the curl play properly? Harpring made a career out of that. What is the reason that we've NEVER seen a layup on the first flex cut? Deron would get one once in a while. Big Al isn't the only black hole. Kanter and Favors (Favours, for those who speak British English..:-) both get the ball int he post and all things stop for them as well. I agree with the comment about Hayward's play. It is quite lackluster, but it think it is not him personally, but the fact that we don't execute enough of an offense to get him to engage. The optimism around MaWill was centered on: "Utah is a structured offense, bla bla..." Well, that is not the case right now. He's no better (maybe worse) due to the lack of execution going on in Jazzland.

    Either the team needs time to jell (i don't think so) or the team needs a game plan to run.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    The number of readable posters on this site has shrunk drastically this season.
    I agree, way too many Corbin apologists running around crying because the rest of us can't see his obvious genius.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    Love how everyone thinks if you play/develop a pick, they will pan out.

    News Flash: After the 3-4-5th pick, 50% of the draft picks are out of the league in 3 years.
    Who knows if they will pan out, but I think it's worth the risk to find out considering

    A) Burks had been fantastic until the regular season (when he stopped playing)
    B) We're only benching him so Randy Foye can play more minutes

    idk, maybe I'm not old-fashioned enough.

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  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    The number of readable posters on this site has shrunk drastically this season. Props to lunatic and salo for making this place less retarded.
    cheers man. i agree entirely. it's a shame because i used to come here for real insight and decent conversation, even if i wasn't always posting. not sure why it's gone so far downhill.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Notes View Post
    Dude, he misspelled Favors. Let's get real and talk about **** that matters.
    yeah ok princess. i've fixed this for you. i almost wanna ask you what it is we can talk about that actually DOES matter, if it's not the basketball team we both (presumably) support, but i've got an idea you might start your reply with 'ty needs to go'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Norm View Post
    I agree, way too many Corbin apologists running around crying because the rest of us can't see his obvious genius.
    c'mon fella. i actually asked in the opening post for people to dig deep to try and contribute more than the standard 'fire corbin' crap.
    "the norm" by name and nature eh? thanks for trying anyway.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salo View Post
    cheers man. i agree entirely. it's a shame because i used to come here for real insight and decent conversation, even if i wasn't always posting. not sure why it's gone so far downhill.




    yeah ok princess. i've fixed this for you. i almost wanna ask you what it is we can talk about that actually DOES matter, if it's not the basketball team we both (presumably) support, but i've got an idea you might start your reply with 'ty needs to go'.
    It was a joke, and a rather underhanded compliment to you.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

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