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Thread: Gut the team

  1. #31
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOS View Post
    the argument doesn't need to be as simple as making the playoffs versus not making the playoffs.

    a. it's safe to say that without a realistic shot at the playoffs everybody (including the youngsters) wouldn't have been gunning as hard. Human nature.
    b. their play happened to be key in us winning enough games to make the playoffs.
    c. you can't have your cake and eat it too. We want them to play hard and learn how to win games. They did.

    Again, it's everything this organization (hasn't) done since then that has driven me crazy. "Hand-sitting" was a bit of a stretch, but Marvin, Mo, and Foye aren't enough... particularly if they are taking time away from the further development of the stretch run I'm praising.
    1. KOC should have made trades that made it harder to win & then pushed a young core hard.
    2. Benching $8mm contracts is a great way to get next to nothing from them. Marvin & Sap could be an appealing trade duo to a 4-6 seed.

    If these guys are getting this much burn after the trade deadline then I'll start getting pissy. December 15 can't come fast enough (the day many contracts become freed up for trade).

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    Gut the team. Keep Favors, Kanter, Hayward, Burks...
    This board is moving fast through the Unfounded Expectations Cycle.

    Stage 1 - Everything is great. All of our young players will develop into All-Stars. Our role players are dependable, our recent acquisitions will be a great fit and outperform their career averages by a mile. And our coach is great too!

    Stage 2 - For some reason many of our young players have not improved that much and the new additions are back to their career averages. Must be the coach not playing them right. Fire this abomination of a coach! Fire! Fire!

    Stage 3 - The realization that this team will not become a dynasty full of All-Stars sets in. Gut the team, tank the season!

  3. #33
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubledribble View Post
    This board is moving fast through the Unfounded Expectations Cycle.

    Stage 1 - Everything is great. All of our young players will develop into All-Stars. Our role players are dependable, our recent acquisitions will be a great fit and outperform their career averages by a mile. And our coach is great too!

    Stage 2 - For some reason many of our young players have not improved that much and the new additions are back to their career averages. Must be the coach not playing them right. Fire this abomination of a coach! Fire! Fire!

    Stage 3 - The realization that this team will not become a dynasty full of All-Stars sets in. Gut the team, tank the season!
    Stage 2 interests me. Are you implying that we (general term) are wrong? If so please explain for us why we are wrong to be disatisfied with the quality of coaching that we are seeing from Corbin.

  4. #34
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Double dribble, I think most of us either want a team with remote chances of bringing a championship or one that is actually entertaining to watch even when they're losing (2003-04). This team is nothing more than go nowhere with little apparent strategy outside player development.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubledribble View Post
    This board is moving fast through the Unfounded Expectations Cycle.

    Stage 1 - Everything is great. All of our young players will develop into All-Stars. Our role players are dependable, our recent acquisitions will be a great fit and outperform their career averages by a mile. And our coach is great too!

    Stage 2 - For some reason many of our young players have not improved that much and the new additions are back to their career averages. Must be the coach not playing them right. Fire this abomination of a coach! Fire! Fire!

    Stage 3 - The realization that this team will not become a dynasty full of All-Stars sets in. Gut the team, tank the season!
    Interesting. I've never liked Corbin and from day one pretty much hated the hire. I also never liked bringing in Marvin or Foye. Mo I understood because of a glaring need at pg but I also didn't understand the love that most threw upon him as he joined our squad.

    To be brief, we have a young squad who is very talented and at the age where they're highly impressionable. We only get one chance during their youth to teach them right, get the best out of them, and build something here. To waste it with Corbin at the helm is beyond ****ing retarded.

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  7. #36
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Who would be busts?
    I think if burks and kanter were getting 20 minutes per game from day one they would actually better than they are now and considered less likely to be busts.
    Also if hayward and favors were getting 30 minutes per game from day one they would be better also and less likely to be busts also.
    Kanter and Favors are/were both ultra-raw projects. It takes time to develop these guys. Playing on a Baby Jazz team would result in a poor man's OKC. None of these guys are as good as Durant/Westbrook/Harden. That team would be like the Ty Chandler Baby Bulls (if we were lucky). You know how that turned out.

    Teams full of prospects don't win and end up farm teams for those that do. OKC is a major outlier. Teams like GS, Washington and Toronto are more the norm. Have fun with that dream.

    Every coach of every team in every sport does things and makes decisions that make fans mad. Right now there are Steeler fans calling for Tomlin's head FFS. The Burks situation does suck and he should play, or get traded for something that contributes. But Favors and Hayward are getting theirs, and Kanter is right where he should be as a developing big.

    I gave Corbs 1 1/2 seasons of passes because of the circumstances and I won't just give him the benefit of the doubt all the time anymore. Favors should have closed that last game, and every game from here on out. But just because you fire the coach doesn't mean the new one will be better, especially if you also get rid of all the players that know WTF they are doing. Draft a Jordan or LeBron and it's a good idea. Otherwise not so much.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    Interesting. I've never liked Corbin and from day one pretty much hated the hire. I also never liked bringing in Marvin or Foye. Mo I understood because of a glaring need at pg but I also didn't understand the love that most threw upon him as he joined our squad.

    To be brief, we have a young squad who is very talented and at the age where they're highly impressionable. We only get that chance once. To waste it with Corbin at the helm is beyond ****ing retarded.
    You're also drunk most of the time....

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOS View Post
    You're also drunk most of the time....
    Dude...

  10. #39
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Notes View Post
    Kanter and Favors are/were both ultra-raw projects. It takes time to develop these guys. Playing on a Baby Jazz team would result in a poor man's OKC. None of these guys are as good as Durant/Westbrook/Harden. That team would be like the Ty Chandler Baby Bulls (if we were lucky). You know how that turned out.

    Teams full of prospects don't win and end up farm teams for those that do. OKC is a major outlier. Teams like GS, Washington and Toronto are more the norm. Have fun with that dream.

    Every coach of every team in every sport does things and makes decisions that make fans mad. Right now there are Steeler fans calling for Tomlin's head FFS. The Burks situation does suck and he should play, or get traded for something that contributes. But Favors and Hayward are getting theirs, and Kanter is right where he should be as a developing big.

    I gave Corbs 1 1/2 seasons of passes because of the circumstances and I won't just give him the benefit of the doubt all the time anymore. Favors should have closed that last game, and every game from here on out. But just because you fire the coach doesn't mean the new one will be better, especially if you also get rid of all the players that know WTF they are doing. Draft a Jordan or LeBron and it's a good idea. Otherwise not so much.
    This is a good post but i would argue that the teams you mentioned (washington, GS, toronto) while having some lottery picks, do not have 4 lottery picks from just 2 draft classes.
    Thoses teams you mentioned are continually in the lotter and therefore get 1 good pick per year, the jazz on the other hand got 4 good picks in only 2 years.
    Not many teams have two #3 picks plus a 9 and 12 pick in just 2 years all without having a bad record.
    So GS, washington and toronto have not been in the jazz situation.

    I think that last year and this year the jazz COULD have played burks and kanter 20 minutes per game and favors and hayward 30 minutes per game and still had a good record and possibly made the playoffs even (much different than the teams you mentioned).
    Also you must look at who was playing ahead of burks and to some extent taking minutes from hayward: Howard, bell, cj miles..... would we really have been much worse if more of those players minutes had went to hayward and burks? Doubtful.
    So to me the jazz (mainly corbin) screwed up big time by giving minutes to CJ, bell and howard (all gone btw) instead of burks and hayward taking more of thier minutes.

    Whats worse is that now they are doing it again: Giving minutes to foye instead of burks when foye will probably be gone next year just like cj, bell, and howard is just adding to the mistakes of last year.

  11. #40
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    I dont think KOC was the one who decided to hire corbin.
    KOC got us favors, kanter, burks, and hayward.... all guys most of us like. He cant force corbin to play them.
    WTF? Lol.

    Who hired Corbin then?

    C'mon man, stop being delusional. So according to you, KOC is only responsible for the good things.?

    And yes he can force Corbin to play them

  12. #41
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hack View Post
    WTF? Lol.

    Who hired Corbin then?

    C'mon man, stop being delusional. So according to you, KOC is only responsible for the good things.?
    I believe that greg miller hired corbin. You think KOC decides who coaches? I didn't know that, i thought he was just in charge of PLAYER PERSONELL, i didnt know he ran the whole organization.

  13. #42
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    I believe that greg miller hired corbin. You think KOC decides who coaches? I didn't know that, i thought he was just in charge of PLAYER PERSONELL, i didnt know he ran the whole organization.

    Thats wtf the GM does, hire the coach and pick ALL the players. Not just the four you like.

    Greg Miller hires the president. The president hires the GM. The Gm hires the coaches and players. The coach hires his assistants. Thats the way it works for the most part. Every team is a little different. The Jazz usually do everything together and help each other make decisions. But for the most part, KOC makes the final decision on all team personnel. Or at least he did. Lindsey had nothing to do with building this team.

  14. #43
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    I had no idea that the GM chooses the coach. If thats the case then koc screwed up choosing corbin.
    I always thought that the GM was only responsible for players not coaches.

    Well i learned something new today i guess.
    Thanks hack.

  15. #44
    Senior Member //r00t 4 Jazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    Interesting. I've never liked Corbin and from day one pretty much hated the hire. I also never liked bringing in Marvin or Foye. Mo I understood because of a glaring need at pg but I also didn't understand the love that most threw upon him as he joined our squad.

    To be brief, we have a young squad who is very talented and at the age where they're highly impressionable. We only get one chance during their youth to teach them right, get the best out of them, and build something here. To waste it with Corbin at the helm is beyond ****ing retarded.
    This is the theme for almost everybody around JF, everybody who hated the hire has never liked it and never really gave him an honest chance, not just with Corbin but you can <insert players name here> and it would apply for the negative or the positive.

    I think we should change the name of the board to I have my own Jazz agenda Fanz.

    There has not been a coach or player I haven't literally cussed at through my TV several times this season. Corbin pisses me off several times every quarter just as Jefferson and so far this season I have yelled at Millsap more then I can ever remember.

    Difference is I am boring and this board would be much more boring if more people were like me. I think the Jazz FO had a plan of letting Corbin grow and learn with this young roster and the same way at the end of the rookie contract if they pan out you try and keep them and if they don't you let them go.

    People complain Corbin doesn't have balls to make changes (yet he has just not ones most fans agree with), people complain the starting line up sucks cause they keep getting off to slow starts and they want to see the big line up. Well the big line up started slower then the other line ups so far this season (granted only 2 games).

    But that leads me to my complaint if Corbin doesn't have the balls everybody one says that means he has to play to win now for fear of his job. Which that would come from ownership, KOC and the Jazz FO, if they wanted him to develop the young'uns at the expense of wins he would (again due to lack of balls stated by fans here).

    Sorry for rambling, let me ramble one more sec however just cause I don't want to add it anywhere else. Before, during and After the road loss to NOH, many people said Thibodeau wouldn't let that happen he's a defensive genius, his team promptly lost AT HOME to this same NOH team. Then these same people say Pop wouldn't let his team stick around for close games home or road, guess your right he only let his team go to 2OT to beat the Raptors instead of 3OT's.

    *No I'm not comparing Corbin to either, obviously both those coaches have proven to be WAY better coaches*

  16. #45
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by //r00t 4 Jazz View Post
    This is the theme for almost everybody around JF, everybody who hated the hire has never liked it and never really gave him an honest chance, not just with Corbin but you can <insert players name here> and it would apply for the negative or the positive.

    I think we should change the name of the board to I have my own Jazz agenda Fanz.

    There has not been a coach or player I haven't literally cussed at through my TV several times this season. Corbin pisses me off several times every quarter just as Jefferson and so far this season I have yelled at Millsap more then I can ever remember.

    Difference is I am boring and this board would be much more boring if more people were like me. I think the Jazz FO had a plan of letting Corbin grow and learn with this young roster and the same way at the end of the rookie contract if they pan out you try and keep them and if they don't you let them go.

    People complain Corbin doesn't have balls to make changes (yet he has just not ones most fans agree with), people complain the starting line up sucks cause they keep getting off to slow starts and they want to see the big line up. Well the big line up started slower then the other line ups so far this season (granted only 2 games).

    But that leads me to my complaint if Corbin doesn't have the balls everybody one says that means he has to play to win now for fear of his job. Which that would come from ownership, KOC and the Jazz FO, if they wanted him to develop the young'uns at the expense of wins he would (again due to lack of balls stated by fans here).

    Sorry for rambling, let me ramble one more sec however just cause I don't want to add it anywhere else. Before, during and After the road loss to NOH, many people said Thibodeau wouldn't let that happen he's a defensive genius, his team promptly lost AT HOME to this same NOH team. Then these same people say Pop wouldn't let his team stick around for close games home or road, guess your right he only let his team go to 2OT to beat the Raptors instead of 3OT's.

    *No I'm not comparing Corbin to either, obviously both those coaches have proven to be WAY better coaches*
    I think you are wrong.
    I was fine with hiring corbin in the beginning and even after we got swept in the playoffs i got into a big arguement with one of my friends who wanted corbin gone. I was defending corbin and making excuses about deron leaving, sloans abrupt retirement, no offseason, no pre-season or fall camp, lockout shortened season. I defended him alot.
    But he keeps making the same big time mistake (favoring vets over youth in every situation even when the vet isn't very good) and my patience is now gone.
    What he is doing with burks is extremely frustrating.

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