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Thread: Gut the team

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUMBERICA View Post
    The Corbin hire was boneheaded wishful-thinking. There's a reason teams hire interim THEN do research and make a decision. Maybe he ends up working out and maybe he doesn't, but so far I am not impressed. The Jazz didn't have to immediately extend him, and that they chose to shows how amateur this organization can be at times.

    That said, Corbin has no easy choices to make with minute distribution. If he starts benching vets hard like everyone wants then the players' trade value gets murdered. KOC/Lindsey need to step up and clear some timber. Plain and simple. KOC probably should've done that last year, but that he hasn't yet (Al specifically) is a huge mistake.

    And for the record, I haven't really watched any games this year and I don't really give a ****.
    I agree but then I ask you why we even acquired so much timber this off-season as if this issue wasn't foreseeable.

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    As far as this team goes, getting rid of Al and Millsap will do a lot to change the outlook of this team. Marvin can be a good roll player can hit the three, I do like Foye, just not playing starter minutes. We can't get rid of Mo, who will play pg? I don't want Tinsly and Watson holding that down alone.

    Getting rid of Al and Millsap changes the outlook of the team.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Catchall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    Keep Favors, Kanter, Hayward, Burks...

    Trade everyone else worth anything to a team for picks. Jefferson. Millsap. Marvin. Mo. Foye.
    Jefferson, Millsap, Mo Williams and Foye expire at the end of this year. Marvin expires next year. So the team is in position to make dramatic changes.
    The Jazz play like azz when the J ain't workin'.

  4. #64
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    Myth. Burks played very close to the average of players taken 10-14 over the last several years. He also played little in the front of the season as there was no training camp to teach him the offense Once he learned his minutes went up significantly, on average. If you're dying for a reason to hang TyCo shouldn't you at least be factual and honest about it?
    So bell, cj, and howard didn't play ahead of burks? Ok nice to know, cause i remember watching those games and that is what i saw happening.
    I never said he played more or less than guys taken in the 10-14 range so i dont know why you brought that up... i just said that bell cj and howard all played ahead of burks.... which i still think i am right about. (at least until all 3 of them were injured) Oh and all 3 of those guys are no longer on the team. I thought that was worth mentioning again

  5. #65
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    What team is going to trade this player they developed (who is an upgrade over our C+ guys) to us? Teams are just giving great players away now? Good to know. Or are you just looking for a marginally solid player like Hayward and Marvin? I mean, if that's the case, I'm sure we could trick some teams into swapping a couple of said studs to us.

    How long do you give Ty? He's been the HC for a year and a half now. I suppose we should just shut our mouths and let him continue to fumble around? Maybe another Spurs' sweep with Jefferson acting as the revolving door will wake you the **** up? Or maybe once Millsap walks, you'll figure out Ty was ****ing things up. Or maybe once Favors does? How long do we wait?

    Right now, it's not a project car with a loose distributor. It's a project car and Ty doesn't know what the **** is wrong with it, how to fix it, and where the hell he'd like to drive it.
    Happens all the time. They aren't winning with their young star so they turn him into a pretty good player and draft picks. Because, like you, they see more opportunity in the lottery than in a very good talent who hasn't fit just right. Or you see something in somebody else's unproven player and make an offer that's difficult to refuse.

    Lamar Odom didn't win for the Clips, was pretty good on the Heat, and was a crucial piece for the 2nd Laker 3peat. Shaq got traded twice in his prime. KG to the Cs. Dallas traded for the rights to Dirk, The Bulls for Pippen, Lakers for Kobe, Magic etc.

    So, the Jazz can either package Sap or Al along with whatever it takes to get a high end talent (Rudy Gay maybe?) or ship one of Burks/Kanter with pick(s) for an unproven player of better pedigree. There also is the option of letting several players expire and being a serious player in FA. There are plenty of options aside from your nuke idea. Better ones since obviously items in a fire sale are at a discount.

    Just because a coach doesn't get in the HOF in 1.5 seasons I suppose you better fire him. It's knee-jerk. George Karl got fired twice so you're not the only guy with this thought. What's going on with the Jazz is inconsistency, not incompetence. If they sucked all the time I'd be with you, but this team goes through periods where they look really, really good. Not lucky making stupid shots, but actually rotating on D (yes including Al), cutting and setting at least half-assed screens. As I said above Ty is trying to keep using the Flex and that is the heart of Jazz ball. I'd way rather give this guy a real opportunity, meaning at least this season, than just throw it all out because you (and others) are feeling antsy and want blood.

    By all means though carry on with your lynch mob party. It's generating some interesting posts at least.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Notes View Post
    Happens all the time. They aren't winning with their young star so they turn him into a pretty good player and draft picks. Because, like you, they see more opportunity in the lottery than in a very good talent who hasn't fit just right. Or you see something in somebody else's unproven player and make an offer that's difficult to refuse.

    Lamar Odom didn't win for the Clips, was pretty good on the Heat, and was a crucial piece for the 2nd Laker 3peat. Shaq got traded twice in his prime. KG to the Cs. Dallas traded for the rights to Dirk, The Bulls for Pippen, Lakers for Kobe, Magic etc.

    So, the Jazz can either package Sap or Al along with whatever it takes to get a high end talent (Rudy Gay maybe?) or ship one of Burks/Kanter with pick(s) for an unproven player of better pedigree. There also is the option of letting several players expire and being a serious player in FA. There are plenty of options aside from your nuke idea. Better ones since obviously items in a fire sale are at a discount.

    Just because a coach doesn't get in the HOF in 1.5 seasons I suppose you better fire him. It's knee-jerk. George Karl got fired twice so you're not the only guy with this thought. What's going on with the Jazz is inconsistency, not incompetence. If they sucked all the time I'd be with you, but this team goes through periods where they look really, really good. Not lucky making stupid shots, but actually rotating on D (yes including Al), cutting and setting at least half-assed screens. As I said above Ty is trying to keep using the Flex and that is the heart of Jazz ball. I'd way rather give this guy a real opportunity, meaning at least this season, than just throw it all out because you (and others) are feeling antsy and want blood.

    By all means though carry on with your lynch mob party. It's generating some interesting posts at least.
    Bwahahahahahahahaha...are you freakin' high? So Lamar Odom in his prime is what this team needs? And you even mentioning those future HOF'ers is beyond laughable. And even more laughable because they were draft day trades and besides Magic, ones in which the player you mentioned was pretty much a complete unknown as to how he would fare in the league. I'll tell you what. If it happens all the time, name me three current players who would be very clear upgrades and help us get over the hump and yet make sense to go after? In other words, trading for someone like Pau makes very little sense. So, three guys. Go. And oh yeah, be sure to include what we'd be trading them back.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
    Bwahahahahahahahaha...are you freakin' high? So Lamar Odom in his prime is what this team needs? And you even mentioning those future HOF'ers is beyond laughable. And even more laughable because they were draft day trades and besides Magic, ones in which the player you mentioned was pretty much a complete unknown as to how he would fare in the league. I'll tell you what. If it happens all the time, name me three current players who would be very clear upgrades and help us get over the hump and yet make sense to go after? In other words, trading for someone like Pau makes very little sense. So, three guys. Go. And oh yeah, be sure to include what we'd be trading them back.
    The joke here is your fantasy that a team made up of 12 guys with 3 years or less experience is going all the way. It isn't and no coach with any pedigree whatsoever will consider coming to SLC to slop that **** all over the country knowing Wes is going to fire him in 1.5 years.

    What's even better is you working yourself into a lather trying to force a bunch of detailed trades for you to pick apart when your OP was a vague rant with no substance itself. Everybody in your thread has had better takes than you. Grats. Get to your bookie, bud, you're clearly itching for your fix. You'll feel more relaxed after you lose a couple grand.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Notes View Post
    The joke here is your fantasy that a team made up of 12 guys with 3 years or less experience is going all the way. It isn't and no coach with any pedigree whatsoever will consider coming to SLC to slop that **** all over the country knowing Wes is going to fire him in 1.5 years.

    What's even better is you working yourself into a lather trying to force a bunch of detailed trades for you to pick apart when your OP was a vague rant with no substance itself. Everybody in your thread has had better takes than you. Grats. Get to your bookie, bud, you're clearly itching for your fix. You'll feel more relaxed after you lose a couple grand.
    That's what I thought. You can't think of three guys. Good job.

  9. #69
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Notes View Post
    Couple things.

    I don't know how Hayward gets used as an example of a guy who was being robbed of minutes. He averaged over 30 mpg last season. It's not just you, but for some reason there is a haunting assumption around here that somehow Bell and Howard were killing the guy's development. Just had to get that out.

    Anyways the main example I was talking about was the http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2005.html 2004 Bulls.

    Chandler(2nd overall)& Curry(4th overall) at 3 years, Heinrich (7th) a year in, Ben Gordon (3rd) & Luol Deng (7th) rookies. This team also sported 3 other non-lottery rooks. Now, in hindsight, not all of those guys were going to be great but basically with most of this core they got good enough to get stomped by the Pistons in the EC semis the next year, just one appearance. This is who I see when I think of the vision of Wes/Freak who would have loved to have jettisoned all the veterans and tanked last year to hopefully get both draft picks.

    My point being, no matter how lottery picks you assemble, unless one of them is a transcendent talent as a prospect ala Derrick Rose (whom the Bulls eventually got of course after repeating the Wes cycle several times) you aren't going anywhere with them and playing them starter minutes simply seasons the players for their next destination.

    Also, whether you are a supporter of Ty or not, he is probably the only coach in the league who was going to continue to attempt to implement the Flex, and if you play a bunch of noobs you can't run any real offense. Thibs and Brooks emphasize D but offensively it's just give the ball to the star and work it out amongst yourselves. Those players aren't learning to play San Antonio ball (or Sloan Ball). Of course the Corbin offense looks like garbage a lot of the time but he is trying to have one. In that regard Foye is hands down better than Burks since he plays and has an impact within the system. This is moot of course if, like Wes, you decided from day 1 that Corbin is a failure but personally I believe it's just as important to develop (install) a system as developing the players themselves. I do like what Ty is trying to do, emphasizing transition and moving into flex sets if it isn't there. Like I said earlier this year he doesn't get a free pass but I want to see what this thing looks like when its put together. Right now it's running like a project car with a loose distributor.

    Anyways IMO rather than worry too much about how much good we can do for the players, we should be looking to package some of those assets with a starter for a much better player somebody else developed. Let the other guy play the lottery game. I'd be way more into this kind of thing if the D league was a true farm system but unfortunately the lottery teams are the farm.

    This post is sig worthy solid, & demonstrates a genuine understanding of basketball. Plenty of posters need to read it over and over and over until they understand what it says.

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  11. #70
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    I don't have to participate in your childish games, wes. I already used Gay as an example who you ignored. People post trade ideas incessantly. It's not any more likely to be able to stockpile draft picks than it is to acquire players for said assets. You are a complete retard if you really believe that we can trade Al for a pick that turns into the next big thing, but at the same time laugh hysterically at the idea that one could combine other assets to acquire one better player.

    Like I said, feel free to keep pumping your fists and gnashing your tooth. You're just clowning yourself dude.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

  12. #71
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    KOC/Lindsey have to do Corbin a favor and move Al or Paul or both, and do it yesterday. Putting Corbin on this position to manage this nonsense is a fail on managements part.

    Its obvious management wants Corbin to play Al and Paul or they would have moved them already.

  13. #72
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    The Jazz don't even have to gut the team to be forced into radical change. Dump Al in a way the either doesn't bring back a player, or package him with another and get one back. Suddenly, Favors and/or Kanter have 30+ minutes available to them.
    #loseeveryremaininggame

  14. #73
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUMBERICA View Post
    The Jazz don't even have to gut the team to be forced into radical change. Dump Al in a way the either doesn't bring back a player, or package him with another and get one back. Suddenly, Favors and/or Kanter have 30+ minutes available to them.
    This

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Notes View Post
    I don't have to participate in your childish games, wes. I already used Gay as an example who you ignored. People post trade ideas incessantly. It's not any more likely to be able to stockpile draft picks than it is to acquire players for said assets. You are a complete retard if you really believe that we can trade Al for a pick that turns into the next big thing, but at the same time laugh hysterically at the idea that one could combine other assets to acquire one better player.

    Like I said, feel free to keep pumping your fists and gnashing your tooth. You're just clowning yourself dude.
    I'm clowning myself? Okay, Gay. Good job given his max contract and far from max-worthy play. Anyone besides him? And you obviously failed to take in the part where I stated that we would stockpile draft picks to move up and get a higher pick to get a stud via the draft, not trade them to acquire a player. We will likely have two 1sts this year. If we could somehow acquire one more, and a couple seconds, we'd have a ton of picks (and Burks?) to be a major player in the draft for just about anyone we wanted.

    By the way, the Browns have three freakin' wins bro. ****ing pathetic.

  16. #75
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    FWIW, if anyone couldn't read my original post, recognize its' exaggerative tone and take it for what it was worth, me venting, then you're an idiot.

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