Mormons and Gays.

[One Brow]

I love hearing self-taught BS. You could use that same rebuttal for saying the cons cancel out the pros cause they do.

The difference being that, for those that contradict, the pros are based in reality, the cons in fantasy. There really have been different definitions of marriage by different cultures. There is no such thing as a traditional definition of marriage that transcends different cultures.

[One Brow]

Apples and oranges.

Absolutely. You're not Ashley's dad, so it's definitely not at all alike.

More seriously, when you take positions that are basically those taken by the homophobes, the results of which basically support the goals of the homophobes, the claim that you, individually, do have homophobic feelings is, at the very best, very meager consolation to the people experiencing discrimination. Your position offers credence and support to homophobia, whether you personally have such inclinations or not.

[BabyPeterzz]

Apples and oranges.

"The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them." - via http://www.mormonsandgays.org/

Kinda like race isn't a choice, eh?

[PKM]

So your point is we shouldn't act on our race?

[Gameface]

Telling a gay person they can be gay all they want as long as they don't act on it is the same as telling a man he can be a man all he wants but his genitals will be removed. Tell me, men, sound like a fair bargain?

[BabyPeterzz]

This site is a step in the right direction. Even though the language is still offensive and degrading, at least they moved off the "choice" stance. It's been upgraded to a disease.

[Scat]

Kinda like race isn't a choice, eh?

A gay man can choose not act on his desires. A black person has black skin regardless. Still apples to oranges.

[Scat]

Telling a gay person they can be gay all they want as long as they don't act on it is the same as telling a man he can be a man all he wants but can't use his genitals. Tell me, men, sound like a fair bargain?

Fixed.

[The Thriller]

The problem isn't official church policy.

The problem is members who treat gays and gay issues in a dismissive or disdainful manner. Not very Christ-like, IMO.

The church can talk about loving everyone until they're blue in the face - it's up to the membership to walk the walk, and generally they're doing a piss poor job.

Have you noticed a difference in members' views on gay marriage from state to state?

Or from age?

Just curious, as Utah tends to have its' share of members who are VERY opinionated. Furthermore, the older members tend to be more stubborn and set in their ways... Sometimes very senile... I remember 1 in my family ward growing up who would attempt to predict the 2nd coming nearly every time he "bore testimony." Which... Was never a testimony. It was, Bro. x would stand up and prophesy to feel important for 10 mins.

One of the main reasons why I can't stand family wards. Their testimony meetings (between the kids running around and parents not caring) are filled with a bunch of women merely wanting to praise their neighbors or cry their eyes out, fathers wanting to talk about travel stories/burn other members, and smartass kids trying to be funny. Say a quick 1-2 minute testimony and sit your butt down. Loved Brazil's simple testimony meetings.

In my singles ward, we have 2 men (that I know of) who served missions and who are homosexual. I'll be honest, I'm pretty good friends with 1 of them and don't really see much prejudice against him. Fellow members don't talk bad about him behind his back. He isn't judged. If anything, most of us respect him, enjoy his comments and insights, and understand that whatever deal you're going through (be it unemployment, porn, loneliness, homosexuality, etc) sucks. It's our duty and opportunity to help lift others up.
My singles ward, though it lacks bigtime in hotties (as I've stated before, we're like the Wizards or Bobcats of hotties. Not bueno) the men are way cool. There are some good hardworking men who help with anything.

Though this homosexual friend of mine may feel comfortable and not judged in this singles ward, I have to imagine that a family ward with a bunch of old-timers might not be as understanding...

Just curious as to what you've observed and also offering my 2cents....

[franklin]

"The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them." - via http://www.mormonsandgays.org/

Kinda like race isn't a choice, eh?

Telling a gay person they can be gay all they want as long as they don't act on it is the same as telling a man he can be a man all he wants but his genitals will be removed. Tell me, men, sound like a fair bargain?

Or telling an alcoholic not to act on genetic conditioning. Or a sociopath to not murder. It's a very rational stance for a religious person to take, although that obviously has to be separated from political discourse.

As a tangent, if we will ever be allowed to discuss homosexuality again in any meaningful manner then I'd like to ask quite a few questions to those who've read a bit into scientific studies. For now I guess I'm limited to asking if there is a distinguishing boundary between male-male pedophelia and male-male adult attraction like there is in heterosexual attraction. & no, I'm not a homophobe. You can kiss my ass if you think I'm asking out of anything besides pure curiosity.

[franklin]

Fixed.

Huh. Never thought of it that way before. Like Catholic clergy from a religious perspective.

[colton]

So, you'd be in favor of allowing the two men to marry, even if they were asexual? Or, do you limit asexual marriages to one man and one woman?

Why did you answer my question with a question? Is this that Whose Line game?

More seriously, you and I have already gone over this at least once in my memory, and maybe even twice. I find your arguments very uncompelling. You find my arguments very uncompelling. Enough said.

[Bronco70]

Have you noticed a difference in members' views on gay marriage from state to state?

I don't know specifically about GM, but in my experience non-Utah morms tend to be a little less rigid and unforgiving. There certainly are exceptions everywhere.

Just curious, as Utah tends to have its' share of members who are VERY opinionated. Furthermore, the older members tend to be more stubborn and set in their ways... Sometimes very senile...

I agree.

In my singles ward, we have 2 men (that I know of) who served missions and who are homosexual. I'll be honest, I'm pretty good friends with 1 of them and don't really see much prejudice against him. Fellow members don't talk bad about him behind his back. He isn't judged. If anything, most of us respect him, enjoy his comments and insights, and understand that whatever deal you're going through (be it unemployment, porn, loneliness, homosexuality, etc) sucks. It's our duty and opportunity to help lift others up.

That's the way it should be. To John Q. Mormon, whether or not someone is homosexual shouldn't matter at all. Additionally, whether or not someone is living a chaste lifestyle is, frankly, none of your/my business (unless you are that person's ecclesiastical leader)

[UGLI baby]

In my experience, just because someone is Mormon doesn't necessarily mean they are gay.

[One Brow]

A gay man can choose not act on his desires.

A black man/woman who falls in love with a white woman/man can choose not to act on their desires.

Apples and apples.