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  1. #136
    world's worst Bronco70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyPeterzz View Post
    Most people on this site are LDS. I have no issue with members of the LDS Church, I just think the stance it takes on homosexuality, and women, is unfortunate to put it lightly.

    I hope my opinions on this subject are not a reflection of my opinions of individuals, but the LDS Church's doctrine and nothing more.
    I understand where you're coming from. I just wanted you to know that not all of us are anti gay marriage.

  2. #137
    Oballin' BabyPeterzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post
    I understand where you're coming from. I just wanted you to know that not all of us are anti gay marriage.

    Honestly, many of my LDS friends are not against gay marriage.
    Freckle Liiiiiip.

  3. #138
    the Chief Old D'oh moevillini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post
    This thread has run its course, and nobody probably cares, but this is my perspective on GM, in a nutshell:

    The problem is two-pronged.

    1. Rights, privileges, and benefits extended to married couples. If there is inequity in any of these from heterosexual couples to homosexual couples, then one is not being treated equally, as the constitution guarantees. That's a problem. This would really be an easy fix, if it were the only issue. Make every "marriage", in the eyes of the gov't, a domestic partnership and extend the same rights to everyone. But, that isn't the only issue.

    2. Essentially, one group is telling another group that the latter must abide by the former's beliefs. Admittedly, I used to think, "Why all the fuss over a title? Give a recognized domestic partnership the same rights as a marriage and everyone stop whining." I have since reconsidered my position. Being told that you can't have or be something that someone else can, because you're different by standards that are not your own, is irrational.

    That's pretty much it.
    agree with this

    the complications I see, and I'm not sure exactly what I think, other than the rights should be equally extended to all, are these (from real examples of folks I know)

    a neighbor's wife passed away, leaving him to raise 4 young children. her sister (his sister-in-law) moved in to the home to take care of the kids, and run the household and essentially be the domestic partner (exept that they did not have an intimate relationship) - this situation went on for about 4 years until the sister married her boyfriend (at that point the kids were all in school full time and the dad hired an after-school nanny) Because they each filed individual tax returns, they paid considerably more than they would have paid if they had been able to file a joint return.

    an elderly widowed lady moves in with her elderly bachelor brother, after 12 years he passes away leaving his entire estate to his sister and her kids - - she paid relatively high estate taxes because she was not able to take advantage of the estate tax exclusion that a married couple would have taken

    It seems to me that it would only be fair for the folks in situations such as these to have the same rights, privileges and benefits as anyone else - - I don't think it should have to depend on what sort of intimate relations you may or may not be having

  4. #139
    Senior Member Archie Moses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyPeterzz View Post
    I hope my opinions on this subject are not a reflection of my opinions of individuals, but the LDS Church's doctrine and nothing more.
    Would you rather the church change their doctrine to comply with your beliefs?
    http://jazzfanz.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=3&dateline=1372802642

  5. #140
    Senior Member Archie Moses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyPeterzz View Post
    Or you're just being called out on your **** and you're just unwilling to own it. Instead, you ebcome the victim and it's all their fault you think they're dirty sinners. Pardon me if I don't weap for you.
    You're a cool guy, but whenever there is a thread about mormons, you're a whinny bitch. With that said, I still like you cause you give me 5 bucks once.
    http://jazzfanz.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=3&dateline=1372802642

  6. #141
    Senior Member Archie Moses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UGLI baby View Post
    In my experience, just because someone is Mormon doesn't necessarily mean they are gay.
    It can get confusing though after knowing some of the LDS posters on this site.
    http://jazzfanz.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=3&dateline=1372802642

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  8. #142
    Senior Member JAG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyPeterzz View Post
    Most people on this site are LDS. I have no issue with members of the LDS Church, I just think the stance it takes on homosexuality, and women, is unfortunate to put it lightly.

    I hope my opinions on this subject are not a reflection of my opinions of individuals, but the LDS Church's doctrine and nothing more.
    I know that I'm getting off topic here but what exactly is your understanding on the LDS church's stance on women?

  9. #143
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    I know that I'm getting off topic here but what exactly is your understanding on the LDS church's stance on women?
    they are Mormons so it has to be oppressive and some form of slavery right.
    #BelieveInLindsey

  10. #144
    Senior Member JAG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    they are Mormons so it has to be oppressive and some form of slavery right.
    I knew it. Those dang Mormons....

  11. #145
    Oballin' BabyPeterzz's Avatar
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    Archie. I would hope the LDS Church would get on with it and stop treating gay people like 2nd class citizens, like they did with black people. If you consider human rights and equality a belief, then yes I think my side is more in line with Christ. But as always, just an opinion.

    I am good and so are you. Dudes can disagree and still give them $5 to lose in poker while I get drunk.
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  12. #146
    Oballin' BabyPeterzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    I know that I'm getting off topic here but what exactly is your understanding on the LDS church's stance on women?
    I think the LDS Church reinforces subservient roles amongst women. But hey, LDS women are ok with it and embrace it. I just disagree, that's all.
    Freckle Liiiiiip.

  13. #147
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyPeterzz View Post
    Honestly, many of my LDS friends are not against gay marriage.
    In my experience this is a point of semantics. The official LDS position prefers civil contract language. IMO, what would help tremendously is if the First Presidency (or any other organization who could be viewed as a leader) actively promoted a libertarian view instead of promoting anti-Prop 8, etc. On the other hand, we have the family unit hangup that essentially prohibits LDS leadership from actively promoting a purely all equal stance as that would work to weaken the religious stance.

    I wonder what the LDS response would be if the country adopted a civil contracts for all policy. Either way, the current political position is extremely mild and understandable. We may disagree with the religious aspects but we already have political freedom from those.
    No Mediocrity

  14. #148
    Oballin' BabyPeterzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    In my experience this is a point of semantics. The official LDS position prefers civil contract language. IMO, what would help tremendously is if the First Presidency (or any other organization who could be viewed as a leader) actively promoted a libertarian view instead of promoting anti-Prop 8, etc. On the other hand, we have the family unit hangup that essentially prohibits LDS leadership from actively promoting a purely all equal stance as that would work to weaken the religious stance.

    I wonder what the LDS response would be if the country adopted a civil contracts for all policy. Either way, the current political position is extremely mild and understandable. We may disagree with the religious aspects but we already have political freedom from those.
    Well put.
    Freckle Liiiiiip.

  15. #149
    world's worst Bronco70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    I wonder what the LDS response would be if the country adopted a civil contracts for all policy.
    That is my soapbox. In the eyes of the gov't, that's all a "marriage" is anyway. Make every partnership equal.

    Oh, and regarding the church and women, one small aspect anyway, they (the church) have been careful to acknowledge that some women will work outside the home, and that they're okay with that, but it has been slow to filter down to the local level - in my neck of the woods, at any rate.

    Our Relief Society has had lessons devoted to women committing themselves to being mothers and homemakers. This, of course, leaves any mother who does work feeling inadequate/ashamed. My wife works. We have two sons, but they are in school most of the day, and my wife has absolutely no interest in being a "stay at home mom". I believe her follow up comment was something along the lines of "yeah, they can kiss my ass."

    I know that this is more reflective of the local attitude than the position of the church itself, but it didn't appear out of thin air.

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