How are we going to score without Al?

[billyshelby]

Which assertion?

That the "players the jazz put on the floor, and how they played together" was dramatically different than what we would have seen with Al. Are we going to have a semantic pillowfight here?

[PKM]

I prefer;

[franklin]

I don't know of any free and available stats that try to measure the relative value of having an iso scorer/drawer of double teams, so it's hard to say how important those skills are. +/- (raw and adjusted) and on-court/off-court team stats are an imperfect indicator, I suppose.

Thanks. I couldn't think of how it would even be measured but I'm sure some stats geek has come up with a way to put a measurement on what's visual.

and? Did you enjoy the game?

Not sure how important it is to do statistical analysis and have any burden of proof as to why playing without Al is more entertaining. It's an opinion, of which, I share.

These. I'd hate for the minutiae to distract from why we're talking about this stuff in the first place. I normally don't care for blowouts but that was a fans game. MOAR!

(or LESS AJ)

[PKM]

In all seriousness, billy, why are so many people talking about the better ball movement, the pace of play, etc .. every time Al doesn't play? I'm not just talking about here, but the office water cooler and stuff. Serious question, btw ..

Do you think everyone has somehow just made this **** up in their heads?

[franklin]

In all seriousness, billy, why are so many people talking about the better ball movement, the pace of play, etc .. every time Al doesn't play? I'm not just talking about here, but the office water cooler and stuff. Serious question, btw ..

Do you think everyone has somehow just made this **** up in their heads?

Absolutely.

Basketball fans aren't very sophisticated and the game lends itself to wonkish views.

Kanter and Millsap both took 16 shots & it was painfully obvious at times that Corbin was playing the exact same pound it inside game that he would have with Jefferson. The difference with Jefferson is that he's good enough to not have to pass the ball back out and reset his post as Kanter did probably 8-10 times that game.

[billyshelby]

In all seriousness, billy, why are so many people talking about the better ball movement, the pace of play, etc .. every time Al doesn't play? I'm not just talking about here, but the office water cooler and stuff. Serious question, btw ..

Do you think everyone has somehow just made this **** up in their heads?

You mean the one time it happened? Or am I supposed to believe everyone remembers the better ball movement in the 5 games it happened last season when the Jazz averaged 100 points?

[GVC]

Thanks. I couldn't think of how it would even be measured but I'm sure some stats geek has come up with a way to put a measurement on what's visual.

You could look at PPP off shots from passes out of double teams v. PPP of all shots from passes over different types of shot (spot up, cuts, etc.). I'd be surprised if synergy sports doesn't track this. Unfortunately, the stats aren't yet freely available. You could also look at team distribution and efficiency by shot type with certain players on/off-court. This is what I'd be most interested in, as it gives a measure of how teams play with different personnel. This is why I may look at the team stats across the league (which are available at mysynergysports.com). This may give some insight into how much good halfcourt offenses depend on scoring out of isos and post-ups (although, again, if passes are made out of these isos/post-ups, the data isn't included...).

[PKM]

You mean the one time it happened? Or am I supposed to believe everyone remembers the better ball movement in the 5 games it happened last season when the Jazz averaged 100 points?

I'm not being argumentative nor am I trolling. Maybe all the people I'm around here in STG (non JF) always talk about the 'life' the team seems to get when Al is out of the game. They talk about better movement w/o the ball, pace of play, etc.

Do you think there's validity, or have people just listened to too many others saying the same and they've formed an opinion from such?

I'm asking more than telling because, though the Jazz are my NBA team, I follow them non-stop, I don't break down the games, play by play, like I do the UK games. (just being as transparent as possible)

[GVC]

Absolutely.

Basketball fans aren't very sophisticated and the game lends itself to wonkish views.

Kanter and Millsap both took 16 shots & it was painfully obvious at times that Corbin was playing the exact same pound it inside game that he would have with Jefferson. The difference with Jefferson is that he's good enough to not have to pass the ball back out and reset his post as Kanter did probably 8-10 times that game.

FWIW, mysynergysports.com has the breakdown by scoring play type for each game. Of note:

For the season, 4.8% of Jazz shots are taken by the P&R roll man. In the Raps game, this number was 9.5%, a 98% increase (for intellectual integrity's sake, the ball handler was shooting a lot less than usual).

For the season, 8.2% of Jazz shots are taken by a cutter. In the Raps game, this number was 12.1%, a 48% increase.

For the season, 15.8% of Jazz shots are taken in transition. In the Raps game, this number was 20.7%, a 31% increase.


Yes, I realize this is only one game against a bad team on the road (and no, I don't know the standard deviation for these play types for the Jazz).

[billyshelby]

I'm not being argumentative nor am I trolling. Maybe all the people I'm around here in STG (non JF) always talk about the 'life' the team seems to get when Al is out of the game. They talk about better movement w/o the ball, pace of play, etc.

Do you think there's validity, or have people just listened to too many others saying the same and they've formed an opinion from such?

I'm asking more than telling because, though the Jazz are my NBA team, I follow them non-stop, I don't break down the games, play by play, like I do the UK games. (just being as transparent as possible)

Al is perceived to be a black hole. A ball stopper. So when a game like Toronto happens, it only serves to reinforce that myth. The irony is this: the small lineups we played, even with all that ball sharing, would get us blown out of most games with credible opponents. But Toronto has no inside game, relies heavily on jumpshots, and plays no defense as evidenced by the fact they've given up 100 points or more in all but 4 of their games this season.

[GVC]

I couldn't understand why Toronto didn't keep Val in and give him the ball in the post on every possession when Millsap was playing the 5 with 2 fouls in the 2nd. Wear out the frontline, force Millsap to the bench and Kanter to play even more minutes than he's accustomed to.

[PKM]

Al is perceived to be a black hole. A ball stopper. So when a game like Toronto happens, it only serves to reinforce that myth. The irony is this: the small lineups we played, even with all that ball sharing, would get us blown out of most games with credible opponents. But Toronto has no inside game, relies heavily on jumpshots, and plays no defense as evidenced by the fact they've given up 100 points or more in all but 4 of their games this season.

Thanks for the response. Now, forget wins and losses for a moment .. do you think Al being in the game makes his teammates move less without the ball to get open? My specific curiosity is if the team plays better team ball w/o Al because they feel there's a better chance of being involved in the offense.

It sounds a little dumb to me, but I hear it ALL the time, so I don't just discount it as patently false.

[NAOS]

Al is perceived to be a black hole. A ball stopper. So when a game like Toronto happens, it only serves to reinforce that myth. The irony is this: the small lineups we played, even with all that ball sharing, would get us blown out of most games with credible opponents. But Toronto has no inside game, relies heavily on jumpshots, and plays no defense as evidenced by the fact they've given up 100 points or more in all but 4 of their games this season.

I could look this up, but the question seems worth the typing:

How many times have they given up 130 points?

[jazzfan1971]

We need a greater sample size.

[GVC]

Al is perceived to be a black hole. A ball stopper. So when a game like Toronto happens, it only serves to reinforce that myth.

That you make such strong statements with nothing to back them up is a head-scratcher, especially considering your history (the CJ Miles jock riding in particular).