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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOS View Post
    We could talk about defense now or in any other thread that so often wanders off topic.

    I'll score it as a victory for my side anytime the Factoid Al Crowd realizes they don't control the terms of the debate. This stuff is debatable. It is debatable whether Al is an elite post player (i.e. efficient). If we were to grant the idea that he is elite (just for discussion), then it would be debatable whether or not this is good for the team. Etc.

    You were kind to his defense. Especially kind given that two better defenders are waiting behind him.
    Bulls start Boozer and Bellinelli. #1 Defense in the league. #2 Memphis starts Zach (and Gasol is no defensive ace, either.) Minnesota is #3 with Love/Pekovic. I'll never understand why people don't realize that defense is not about having a stud inside, and more importantly it's easy to compensate for weak defensive players when you everybody buys in. I'm watching the #6 Spurs now (on DVR, don't ruin it), and they have absolutely ZERO interior defensive presence. Tim does his job, but he scares nobody.

  2. #257
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    It's taken me a good 6-8 months but I've finally honed in on whos alt you are. You've been one of the hardest. Bravo.
    Not an alt at all, i promise you.

    And 6 to 8 months thinking of lil ole me? Aww shucks frank, i reckon you're sweet on me

  3. #258
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    Basically, none of this happens. We go into the post no matter which of our 4 are on the floor. And when it goes into Favors, it's not coming out. If anyone on this team is a black hole, it's him. Kanter is much more apt to pass out if he can't get an initial move going, but that hardly contributes to the "ball moving around." He's usually diddled with it for a few seconds and quits. And there's plenty of times it goes right back in to him.

    I've got no problem with this. Favors will eventually need to learn to pass, but he needs a post game more. Kanter is getting better, he just needs more of an arsenal. But the irony is once he gets one, he's not going to be passing out much more either. While I love the potential of Favors and Kanter, you can be sure we'll hear about ball sticking if they're the starters next year (and that's not necessarily a bad thing.)
    Ya i acknowledged that we use favors and kanter the same way, however the difference between favors/kanter and jefferson is that corbin wants the offense to go through AL MORE OFTEN than favors and kanter.

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    Bulls start Boozer and Bellinelli. #1 Defense in the league. #2 Memphis starts Zach (and Gasol is no defensive ace, either.) Minnesota is #3 with Love/Pekovic. I'll never understand why people don't realize that defense is not about having a stud inside, and more importantly it's easy to compensate for weak defensive players when you everybody buys in. I'm watching the #6 Spurs now (on DVR, don't ruin it), and they have absolutely ZERO interior defensive presence. Tim does his job, but he scares nobody.
    I like you Billy, but I have a trollish response:

    Cool story. Would you like some Sexual Turkey?

  5. #260
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    As to Al, Brown Notes has been dead on. Going into the post is a good thing. It's also a thing Al is really, really good at. I've been killing this offense all year for the lack of cutters and movement once he gets it. He's certainly not missing cutters because, until recently, there haven't been any. The light bulb seems to have gone off on that front because there is much more fluidity in the last few games.
    So billy what changed these last few games to make the "light bulb" go off on the fact that there are more cutters/ball movement?

    Seems like the thing that changed is in one of the games al was out and the other game we went to paul more.

  6. #261
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    How is your conviction that the offense will move the ball better or guys will cut more without Al any less speculative? The Toronto game? The Laker game when our bigs didn't pass the ball any more than Al does?
    Seems like both of those games (toronto and LA) were quit good games for the jazz.... Do you disagree? Oh wait your stubborness will force you to say it was because of the defense of the opponent and that it had nothing to do with the fact that al was getting the ball less.

    Or something like "sample size".

    So how did i do explaining your side of the arguement for ya?

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Ya i acknowledged that we use favors and kanter the same way, however the difference between favors/kanter and jefferson is that corbin wants the offense to go through AL MORE OFTEN than favors and kanter.
    But that's not true, either. Under normal circumstances, Favors and Kanter are on the floor with Tinsley. Hayward is usually out there and we've (thankfully) gotten away from letting Hayward do too much. Tinsley makes plays Mo can't make as a PG, but the offense generally runs the same way.

    Chart it if you want. But we don't run a starter offense and a backup offense.

  8. #263
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    But that's not true, either. Under normal circumstances, Favors and Kanter are on the floor with Tinsley. Hayward is usually out there and we've (thankfully) gotten away from letting Hayward do too much. Tinsley makes plays Mo can't make as a PG, but the offense generally runs the same way.

    Chart it if you want. But we don't run a starter offense and a backup offense.
    Fact is (however unfortunate to your side of this arguement) that favors and kanter get less minutes than al.... therfore there is no doubt in my mind that i am correct when i say that Al has the ball in the post MORE OFTEN than favors and kanter.... due to minutes that is straight up fact.

    Now when you say that nothing would change if kanter or favors started instead of al that is total guessing and speculation.
    I always take the side of fact over guessing. Sorry

    Also there is a huge change to the offense you are forgetting. Kanter and favors are much more mobile so there is alot more transition offense. And they are better defensively causing turnovers and tough shots leading to even more transition.

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Seems like both of those games (toronto and LA) were quit good games for the jazz.... Do you disagree? Oh wait your stubborness will force you to say it was because of the defense of the opponent and that it had nothing to do with the fact that al was getting the ball less.

    Or something like "sample size".

    So how did i do explaining your side of the arguement for ya?
    Forget Toronto, I can't convert anyone who thinks blowing out Toronto was because of a paradigm shift.

    Look at LA. Paul took 18 shots. He had 2 assists. In 40 minutes. Who does that remind you of? And the ball still "moved" right?

  10. #265
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Plus right now kanter and favors are used similar to AL and that COULD be due to that fact that it is difficult for an inexperienced coach and young bench to change the offense up for the non big al lineups.

    Is it not possible that with al gone and favors or kanter in his place that ty could eventually change the offense to something more pick and roll focused or something?

  11. #266
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    Forget Toronto, I can't convert anyone who thinks blowing out Toronto was because of a paradigm shift.

    Look at LA. Paul took 18 shots. He had 2 assists. In 40 minutes. Who does that remind you of? And the ball still "moved" right?
    Not sure if the ball moved but it sure was a fun game to watch and we seemed to score ok (117 pts) during that game. (that is what this thread is all about after all)

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOS View Post
    I like you Billy, but I have a trollish response:

    Cool story. Would you like some Sexual Turkey?
    I have said in every post that I don't think either Al or Paul will be back and we will start next year with Favors and Kanter starting. Based on what I have seen from Kanter very recently, I'd basically be OK with that. But we will get worse off the bat because neither of those guys can score reliably in the post, and many people don't seem to understand how important that is to an offense.

  13. #268
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    I have said in every post that I don't think either Al or Paul will be back and we will start next year with Favors and Kanter starting. Based on what I have seen from Kanter very recently, I'd basically be OK with that. But we will get worse off the bat because neither of those guys can score reliably in the post, and many people don't seem to understand how important that is to an offense.
    Like i said, you presume that the offense will be the same.....is it not possible for corbin to change the offense once his safety blanket (jefferson) is gone?

    Or do think there is some kind of rule that no matter the personnell the offense must go through the low post no matter what?

    Oh wait you said yourself that they used paul millsap against the lakers in a much different way and totally changed the offense to the tune of 117 pts on the road.... so there is a chance things could change without big Al.
    Thanks for that insight billy. I look forward to next year even more now!

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Not sure if the ball moved but it sure was a fun game to watch and we seemed to score ok (117 pts) during that game. (that is what this thread is all about after all)
    This thread is not about what the "funnest" offense is. If we were looking for "fun" we'd hire Paul Westhead to install the Loyola Marymount offense. Scoring more points does not mean we ran a different offense against the Lakers. We just ran things better than we have with more guys cutting and a very good break.

  15. #270
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOS View Post
    I'll add this as a sidebar: at least there is the merit that I'm willing to admit the speculative nature of my argument. The Al apologists preach their stuff like gospel.
    It's just a specific response to a specific accusation. There is somebody wandering all over the GD place in here but it's not me. If you don't like watching basketball with the ball going down low into the bigs all the time great, awesome. Me too. I want a more rounded offense same as everybody else. The fact is Al Jefferson does not make that low block action any slower than it is designed to be, nor does he discourage other players from moving by doing something incorrectly.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

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