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  1. #16
    Senior Member Thee jazz fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJAS View Post
    I remember hearing Phil Jackson talk about the two most important aspects of a winning team: 1) team defense/defensive execution and 2) trust in the pass. After the last few games it is apparent how important passing is to success in the NBA. I also remember watching the Dream Team. They passed the ball so beautifully despite each player’s personal scoring prowess. The Spurs are a thing of beauty with there passing. The Mavericks beat the Heat with their pinpoint and unselfish passing etc. etc. My main point is that we have a lot of players that don’t pass the ball at a high rate for their position, and I’m not talking about Jefferson.

    Hollinger’s Assist Ratio (with enough minutes)
    1. Tinsley (50.9)---[1 in the NBA]
    2. Mo Williams (31.7)---[13 among PG’s]
    3. Foye (14.7)---[36 among SG’s]
    4. Paul Millsap (13.9)---[17 among PF’s]
    5. Carroll (13.8)---[32 among SF’s]
    6. Hayward (12.4)---[44 among SG’s]
    7. Al Jefferson (9.6)---[17 among C’s]
    8. Marvin Williams (9.3)---[53 among SF’s]
    9. Enes Kanter (4.8)---[39 among C’s]
    10. Derrick Favors (4.8)---[68 among PF’s]

    To begin with, Kanter had the absolutely worst ratio in the entire NBA last year at 2.3. Tinsley leads the NBA, and Mo is solid. Al (Mr. Black hole) and Millsap are the best at their respective positions at 17. Hayward on the other hand is very bad at passing the ball this year (ranked 8 among SG’s with 20.6 last year, so we know he can pass), but despite his low ratio, Marvin is even lower. What is most disturbing is that our future starting 4 & 5 are horrific passers. This can get better of course and Kanter is showing good improvement, but Favors has got to learn to pass. He is ranked at 68 among PF’s, the exact same rank that he had last year with 6.4. He had 6.4 his rookie year and was ranked 70 among PF’s. Favors did not change from his rookie to sophomore year and has now gotten worse his third year. To make matters worse, Burks had a horrible ratio as well last year. Put our young core together and you have a team that does not know how to pass at all. You’re going to need Tinsley and his #1 rank just to make things run unless these guys start passing the rock. This fact should also be central to the type of PG you get for the future.
    This thread is misleading. I thought it was going to be about passing ability. This is more about ability of how often they pass, with that said good post. Question I have is... Does our lack of passing have to do with offensive philosophy pg's throw into post? Al has gotten better at passing out to three shooters Hayward, Marvin, Foye, and at this stage of Kanter, and Favors careers they have tunnel vision. So this offense is about post up and catch and shoot. The pg's and Al will seem to have more opportunities to pass. Where as Foye and Marvin are spending most their time spotting up behind the three line and Hayward runing the curl play and other catch and shoot stuff.

    Also your graffiti is showing the main problem is with the young players, which is usually a problem with younger players.

  2. #17
    Senior Member Thee jazz fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thee jazz fan View Post
    This thread is misleading. I thought it was going to be about passing ability. This is more about ability of how often they pass, with that said good post. Question I have is... Does our lack of passing have to do with offensive philosophy pg's throw into post? Al has gotten better at passing out to three shooters Hayward, Marvin, Foye, and at this stage of Kanter, and Favors careers they have tunnel vision. So this offense is about post up and catch and shoot. The pg's and Al will seem to have more opportunities to pass. Where as Foye and Marvin are spending most their time spotting up behind the three line and Hayward runing the curl play and other catch and shoot stuff.

    Also your graffiti is showing the main problem is with the young players, which is usually a problem with younger players.
    Damn spell check!

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  4. #18
    Senior Member candrew's Avatar
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    At this point I don't give a flip about Favors and Kanter's passing ability or tendancies.

    Most big men become proficient scorers before they become proficient passers. Lets get them to put points on the board on a consistent basis before worrying about their passing.

  5. #19
    Senior Member JJAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by candrew View Post
    At this point I don't give a flip about Favors and Kanter's passing ability or tendancies.

    Most big men become proficient scorers before they become proficient passers. Lets get them to put points on the board on a consistent basis before worrying about their passing.
    As I said, I think they can both improve, but Favors has not improved in three seasons so far and has actually gotten worse this year. I personally think they need a lot of playing time. It would also be interesting to know if your statement of "most big men become proficient scorers before they become proficient passers" is true or not. I don't know personally. It seems somewhat logical. If it is true, then how much do they improve on average because K & F have got nowhere to go but up.

  6. #20
    Senior Member JJAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by candrew View Post
    At this point I don't give a flip about Favors and Kanter's passing ability or tendancies.

    Most big men become proficient scorers before they become proficient passers. Lets get them to put points on the board on a consistent basis before worrying about their passing.
    Having just looked at the trends of about 30 big men (playing now and in the past), most do not change a lot at all. There are a few that get worse, and there are a few that improve a bit. Very few improve dramatically unless it's going from 2/36 to 4/36, i.e., from someone who can pass to someone who can pass very well. The one exception that gives me hope is Jermaine O'Neal (http://www.basketball-reference.com/...onealje01.html), who started off very low like Kanter and Favors and went up to around 2.5/36 (but dropped off around age 30). Kanter in my mind can improve the most since he started Bball much later and has shown the most improvement statistically. We'll see.

  7. #21
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    I would think one would aquire more assists when passing out of the post to an open mo williams, randy foye, or marvin williams, than you would passsing out to gordon, tinsley, or demarre.

    The combo of Mo, randy, marvin is better to pass to than gordon, tinsley, demarre.

    I still agree with the stats that millsap and al are better passers right now than a couple of 20 year old though..... i also think if this study was done across the league you would find that players who have been in the league for 8 years in thier late 20's are usually better passers than 20 or 21 year olds.

  8. #22
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    All of our quantitative analyses are approximations of the qualities that result from the relation of multiple non-numerical quantities of force; we perceive only these qualities, therefore any quantitative analysis involves the art of qualitative analysis.

    The quantitative reductions of passing given in free and available stats are deeply flawed. If Hayward is passing less, then that definitely has something to do with him transitioning to a focal point of the second unit. If Favors seems to be regressing, something tells me it is because THE WORLD is telling him to be more aggressive. Etc.

    From what I hear, new advanced stats are tackling this issue specifically. It'll be interesting to see what new measurements look like. But, for now, there is nothing close to the eyeball test when evaluating passing. Hayward is fine. Mo is figuring things out. Millsap is under-rated. Jefferson has improved.

  9. #23
    Senior Member JJAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOS View Post
    1)All of our quantitative analyses are approximations of the qualities that result from the relation of multiple non-numerical quantities of force; we perceive only these qualities, therefore any quantitative analysis involves the art of qualitative analysis.

    2)The quantitative reductions of passing given in free and available stats are deeply flawed. If Hayward is passing less, then that definitely has something to do with him transitioning to a focal point of the second unit. If Favors seems to be regressing, something tells me it is because THE WORLD is telling him to be more aggressive. Etc.

    3)From what I hear, new advanced stats are tackling this issue specifically. It'll be interesting to see what new measurements look like. But, for now, there is nothing close to the eyeball test when evaluating passing. Hayward is fine. Mo is figuring things out. Millsap is under-rated. Jefferson has improved.
    The first part would make Derrida proud in that it paradoxically tries to present a strong and lucid point by obfuscating it with abstractions and poor sentence structure. When broken down the sentence means "there are too many mysterious things going on to try and understand passing."

    On the second part: how do you know that Hayward is passing less? Also, stats should be used to do the analysis you just did, i.e., try to understand why the numbers say what they do.

    On the third: There's nothing to say since this attitude is based on some sort of feeling of the spirit or trusting to your senses and perfect memory. You like one, I like both (numbers and my senses + brain).

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJAS View Post
    The first part would make Derrida proud in that it paradoxically tries to present a strong and lucid point by obfuscating it with abstractions and poor sentence structure. When broken down the sentence means "there are too many mysterious things going on to try and understand passing."

    On the second part: how do you know that Hayward is passing less? Also, stats should be used to do the analysis you just did, i.e., try to understand why the numbers say what they do.

    On the third: There's nothing to say since this attitude is based on some sort of feeling of the spirit or trusting to your senses and perfect memory. You like one, I like both (numbers and my senses + brain).
    my post was for you JJAS_2814.

  11. #25
    Senior Member JJAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOS View Post
    my post was for you JJAS_2814.
    Is that you Franklin?

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJAS View Post
    Is that you Franklin?
    I thought you were Franklin?!?

  13. #27
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    It's not Evans?
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

  14. #28
    Senior Member illyasova's Avatar
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    Who's the Worst Passer on the Jazz? No doubt it's Kanter. Favors is better than Kanter easily. The question is not about stats but also talent wise. Big Al may be does not like passing the ball but most def. he is good at passing when he wants but it's opposite for Kanter. He can not think fast or react after seeing the open guy or even he does, he can not pass it with good force at time. It's slow process for big men to improve basketball iq, see passing channels when they are under the pressure and Kanter has way to go for it.
    Che: I have got two things "freedom and death." If I can not have one, i wish to have the other; because noone is able to capture me alive

  15. #29
    Senior Member Cy's Avatar
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    Big Al suffers from a slow mind when it comes to passing. Him and Millsap have some good chemistry, but he is the only player I really ever see Al make any kind of advanced passes to.

  16. #30
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    The ability to pass has everything to do with the quality of the offense. I watched the Spurs last night, and they're #1 in assists. You'd think that was because they must have assembled a bunch of quality passers. Not true. Parker leads the team at 7.6. Manu is at 4.5. But the shocking number is they've got 10 guys between 1 and 2 (a little misleading since all 10 don't play every night, but we have 3 for sake of comparison.)

    In other words, they've got a ton of guys getting cheap assists every night -- pass to a guy, he scores, get an assist.

    You could chalk this up to all the PnR they run, but that's not it. The beauty of the Spurs offense is everybody knows where everybody is going to be. They remove thinking and creativity from the equation better than anyone.

    When we consistently have cutters or perimeter players sliding to designated spots on the arc, everybody will suddenly become a better passer.

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