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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #1156
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    I'd rep you GF for your points about how to record gun violence but I can't.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

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    that tonight's gonna be a good good night; wooh hoo (x4) - For Cy

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    world's worst Bronco70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    I read that half of gun deaths in the U.S. are from suicides. Does anyone know if that's a legit stat? I don't think those cases should be included in the numbers used in the gun debate unless people really want to argue about how to prevent suicides and think taking away gun rights is justified on the grounds of reducing suicide, which I don't think will fly.
    I was being facetious in my comment, but yeah... every source I've checked indicates that more than half (right around 60%) of all gun deaths are suicides.

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    world's worst Bronco70's Avatar
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    To follow up, I went to the CDC website and browsed their death stats for 2010.

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/dea...10_release.pdf

    It broke down like this:

    Total gun deaths: 31,672
    Gun homicides: 11,078
    Gun suicides: 19, 392
    Other*: 1,202

    This breaks down roughly as; suicide 61%, homicide 35%, other 4%. That means almost 2/3 of all gun deaths are self inflicted.

    *Other is defined as Unintentional, Legal Intervention/War, and Undetermined.

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  5. #1159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    As opposed to you telling me what I can and cannot do?
    The cry of the unenlightened individualist. What's really ironic is that, if I thought every gun owner would act as responsibly as you describe yourself acting, I would see no need for gun control at all. The reason you would not be allowed to do, or not do things like carry on a university, is completely unfair to you.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post
    Yep. That hasn't been the point since word 1. You can go ahead and claim that it's what you have been saying all along, but it isn't, so I guess we're at an impasse.
    Since I don't know what you mean by "all along", and I have had different points at different times in this thread, I only am making a claim about this particular small section of the discussion since the refusal to allowed concealed carry on universities was brought up.

    That would be here:
    http://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?1...l=1#post488590

    I feel I was very clear that I was objecting to a bad argument, specifically the dichotomy that was being put forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post
    You're the recess lady at the elementary school. There has been an outbreak of fights on the playground. You've decided that all the A students need to sit quietly in at their desks during recess. One of those overachievers may suddenly snap and start a brawl. Less children on the playground = less chance of a fight. Except that all the surly kids, who start the fights, are still out at recess. Bravo.
    As one of the former A students who was also one of the surly kids at times, I find your ableist story to be the perfect example of the type of dichotomy that I was complaining about in the post I linked to. You can't divide the kids into separate groups of "A students" and "surly kids". If you reverse that, and allow only the A students onto the playground, you'll still get fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post
    I'll say this one more time, and you can disregard it yet again: A law that is purposely constructed to set limitations ONLY on those who already abide by the rules DOES NOT increase safety.
    I'll offer the same replay: laws the limit access have an effect on everyone, even those who are law-abiding; also, people who are law-abiding 99% of the time will still have access to guns in the other 1%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post
    2nd amendment completely aside, getting the ball rolling by disarming law abiding people is as ass-backwards an approach as you could take.
    I agree there is no quick solution to the issue of mass shootings; I have said that before in this thread.
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    I read that half of gun deaths in the U.S. are from suicides. Does anyone know if that's a legit stat? I don't think those cases should be included in the numbers used in the gun debate unless people really want to argue about how to prevent suicides and think taking away gun rights is justified on the grounds of reducing suicide, which I don't think will fly.
    How about we meet half-way: we should only include the difference in successful suicide rates between those who use guns and those who use other methods?
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    I think guns are a more surefire (pardon the pun) method, but that's not a gun control argument in my opinion. I'm typically not in favor of laws that protect people from themselves and that's exactly what gun control to prevent suicides would be.
    ...
    But I think this current push is focused on diminishing America's gun culture, not in reducing mass shootings or gun crime in general. One Brow has expressed that ideology time and time again: less guns = less gun death. And that's the bottom line. He doesn't care if many of those gun deaths are suicides, or gang vs gang shootings using illegally obtained and possessed firearms. Eventually, by arbitrarily reducing legal gun ownership, illegal gun usage will fall.

    And I thought liberals didn't believe in trickle-down economics.
    The myth of the always rational person. While sometimes people who choose suicide are rational (and those that are tend to be more successful with any method), most are not. They take too many pills, or too few, because they don't do research on the subject. The noose doesn't get tied correctly, the garage isn't fully sealed, etc. However, guns are highly efficient even with no research and no effort. My mother had an extra 20 years because she didn't use a gun. She became the primary daycare provider to three of her grandchildren because she didn't use a gun. She would have been the first person to tell you her suicide was a mistake, and that she was not thinking rationally.

    So, every time you say that you're "not in favor of laws that protect people from themselves", you're supporting people actively acting against what would be rational, due to mood swings, loneliness, desperation, etc. Do you support letting every irrational person out of mental hospitals?

    As for what I believe in regarding economics and similar issues, I believe in doing what works, whether it goes by the name "liberal" or "conservative".
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

  9. #1163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gameface View Post
    YES! Guns are used constantly to deescalate potentially dangerous situations.
    From Bronco's statistics, there are 2-3 unintentional gun deaths every day, in addition to the 37 homicides and 25 suicides that would not have been deadly if guns were not available. So, do you have any reason to think your depiction happens 55 times a day in the US?
    http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/

    Isaiah 1:18 -- Come now, and let us reason together

    Any habitual action, such as eating or dressing, may be performed on the appropriate occasion, without any need of thought, and the same seems to be true of a painfully large proportion of our talk. -- Bertrand Russell

  10. #1164
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    The cry of the unenlightened individualist. What's really ironic is that, if I thought every gun owner would act as responsibly as you describe yourself acting, I would see no need for gun control at all. The reason you would not be allowed to do, or not do things like carry on a university, is completely unfair to you.
    Ah, the cry of the self deluded enlightened one.

    Most gun owners are as responsible as I am and the facts prove it. Even factoring in suicides and deaths in self defense cases the overwhelming number of gun owners are responsible owners.

    You are trying to create laws based on what you think might happen. That is a poor, crappy reason to enact laws and I reject it.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

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    that tonight's gonna be a good good night; wooh hoo (x4) - For Cy

  11. #1165
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    I read thru here and I have to admit that I admire One Brows level of trolling/self delusion. That **** is impressive.

    We have the "unelightened individualist", "the myth of the always rational person" and other zingers.

    Haha, **** is gold.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

    I Got a feeling that tonight's gonna be a good night; that tonight's gonna be a good night;
    that tonight's gonna be a good good night; wooh hoo (x4) - For Cy

  12. #1166
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    As one of the former A students who was also one of the surly kids at times, I find your ableist story to be the perfect example of the type of dichotomy that I was complaining about in the post I linked to. You can't divide the kids into separate groups of "A students" and "surly kids". If you reverse that, and allow only the A students onto the playground, you'll still get fights.
    Wow and wow. You either completely missed the point of that analogy, or you blatantly chose to disregard and derail it.

    I'll offer the same replay: laws the limit access have an effect on everyone, even those who are law-abiding;
    That's right. They can limit a person's ability to protect himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    How about we meet half-way: we should only include the difference in successful suicide rates between those who use guns and those who use other methods?
    So gun related suicides are the only unacceptable kind? Got it.

  13. #1167
    Senior Member PearlWatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    and just which universe is it that you live in?

    We've had every kind of tyranny we can think of in this one. When are you going to wake up and smell the coffee? The whole thesis of your world view consists of the dogma that those who know best should have power to tell the rest.

    Hasn't anybody ever been able to tell you anything? You're sitting on a pile of your own ****, and you think you've got it all figured out, principally because someone has been able to convince you they know it all.

    Until you can make yourself comfortable with questioning authority, you won't be open to questioning yourself, or smelling your own stuff. . . . and you won't really be OK with letting human beings be free, either. Yah, I know you're hung up on a version of history and a world view that claims "progress" consists of certain ideals, all dressed up in the claim that these are the good ones.

    But they are the same ideals that have been claimed by virtually every tyrant there ever was. This isn't progress. Human liberty would be progress, but authoritarian top down rule is not.

    The reason why there is a Bill of Rights is because everyone who has ever had unlimited power has abused whatever human beings they had power over. And no, there is no "strong argument" for giving more tyrants more power, or to disarm the people.

    While some people will use weapons to kill others piecemeal, one by one or maybe even whole schoolrooms of kids, as abhorrent as that is, it is nothing on the scale governments have done to their own citizens when the citizens were powerless to deter a tyrant. "Right Wing" dictatorships have killed thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, but idiological marxists and socialists have killed millions just in the past century.

    It's a simple case of minimizing the whole range of risks, and those who ignore the risks governments pose against their own people are just not honest in their arguments.
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    So you're saying you won't respond if I call you SOB? I wonder if the filter here would even let me "engage Straw One Brow".

    hmmm. .. . looks like the filter doesn't see that as a problem... . . . get Colton on it ASAP.

    Look real One Brow, you're the man with the blog about the Universe, and I've watched you debate popular fiction about the meaning of everything pretty endlessly, and pointlessly. I do wonder who pays you to be on the internet for the amount of time you invest. . . . or how you actually earn your living. . . . but whatever.

    I've seen in the immense volumes of your product where you actually look forward, like most "progressives" do, to the time when the UN's stated objective of absolutely no private people having any weapons is achieved, and "world peace" will be the result. . . . negotiated at the tables of unelected UN officialdumb to the complete satisfaction of statists worldwide. . . . . lol.

    Until you recognize yourself for what you actually are, nobody can tell you any different from what you think. Besides believing in the promoted agenda of some the world's cleverest propagandists, which I suppose is a human right as well as self-defense. . . . . a lot of folks are as set in their ways as I imagine you are, in complete satisfaction with it all. But let me try one more time to unsettle you with some barbarous little pokes. . . .

    do you or do you not realize that's it's just a waste of time to quibble about erudite distinctions in statistical categories of theoretical classifications of human beings? "reasonable citizens" don't exist in the minds of political strategists or government managers...... all citizens must be guided by the "reason" of the objectives of the statists. Anyone who doesn't agree with their agenda must be separated out, labeled as some kind of threat, and marginalized by the media somehow. . . . ignored. . . . called hateful slurs of some kind. . . . Even letting the government have the power to employ professionals to make those distinctions is going to result in horrific oppression.

    No matter how airtight the psychiatric classifications can be made, the human who is completely predictable one day just might flip out tomorrow. And that goes for Presidents as much as for druggies behind the liquor store. No professional and responsible approach to management, imposed by the world's leading intellects, is going to be able to stop people from doing "wrong" when they decide to do it, nor stop them from inventing their own views and reasons different from what they're "told". History is replete with examples of tyrants and statists of every stripe who have gone over the deep end somehow, and become homicidal monsters on grand scales, or in unforseeable ways implemented forms of genocide within their own lands, and started senseless wars with neighboring realms. . . . . And that is why it's just a human right, to absolutely possess significant deterernce against the immediate threats to life, limb, or property.

    An armed citizenry should be viewed as a civic duty, as the most convincing deterent we can ever hope for, against criminals, gangs of criminals, or governments gone wrong.

    we will always have policemen who go bad, presidents or statesmen of any rank, kings and tyrants who go bad. We have scientists who go bad too. There is no place you can safely place your trust, and you have no legitimate business trying to tell other people where they should place theirs. . . .. speaking as an authority of any kind, that is. . . . it is nothing more than perhaps your opinion. God I hope it's your opinion, and not just something on your "talking points" sheet for the day.

    And, finally, anyone who imagines a universe that is merely mechanical, or rational, or capable of being reduced to a mathematical equation, is just missing out on all the fun in life.
    I loved reading these 2 posts filled with Babe's classic wit and wisdom.

    I'm sure the rest of the ginormous thread is full of liberal ignorance I'm glad I didn't bother to read.
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  14. #1168
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PearlWatson View Post
    I loved reading these 2 posts filled with Babe's classic wit and wisdom.

    I'm sure the rest of the ginormous thread is full of liberal ignorance I'm glad I didn't bother to read.
    While there is alot of that, many posters (GF, Salty, myself, bronco70...) have kept it honest.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

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    that tonight's gonna be a good good night; wooh hoo (x4) - For Cy

  15. #1169
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    While there is alot of that, many posters (GF, Salty, myself, bronco70...) have kept it honest.
    So the people on your side of the arguement? How convenient

  16. #1170
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    So the people on your side of the arguement? How convenient
    He went of about liberals and not conservatives. If it was reversed one could say that One Brow, you, Jimmy eat jazz...

    But hey you want to pretend to be offended so be my guest.

    WOE IS ME! Someone said something edgy so I will pretend to act offended so they back down down. Well tuff ****. Each side serves to keep the other honest. If you don't like my stance then go pound sand.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

    I Got a feeling that tonight's gonna be a good night; that tonight's gonna be a good night;
    that tonight's gonna be a good good night; wooh hoo (x4) - For Cy

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