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  1. #31
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Just read on ESPN that the "working assumption" amoung the GMs of the league is that the Jazz will trade either Big Al or Millsap for a "frontline PG" by the trade deadline.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

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  3. #32
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBProfane View Post
    Here's a telling statistic for this season: the highest +/- for a 4 player combination on the Jazz this year is Tinsley, Carroll, Hayward and Kanter who have posted a collective +51 this season. By comparison, Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka & Sefolosha have posted a +55.
    In 21 minutes only. Too small sample size.
    No Mediocrity

  4. #33
    Senior Member IBProfane's Avatar
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    Okay, here's a broadened picture of the +/- statistics I was presenting earlier. I took the top 10 most effective 5 man rotations for the Jazz, and here's how many times each players appeared in those 10 line-ups. The sample size is still relatively small, but between the various line-ups, each player with at least 3 appearances logs more than 50 minutes total, others substantially more.

    Gordon Hayward: 7
    Derrick Favors: 6
    Jamaal Tinsley: 6
    Enes Kanter: 5
    Marvin Williams: 5
    DeMarre Carroll: 5
    Paul Millsap: 4
    Al Jefferson: 3
    Mo Williams: 3
    Randy Foye: 3
    Earl Watson: 1
    Jeremy Evans: 1
    Alec Burks: 0

  5. #34
    Senior Member Weezur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBProfane View Post
    Okay, here's a broadened picture of the +/- statistics I was presenting earlier. I took the top 10 most effective 5 man rotations for the Jazz, and here's how many times each players appeared in those 10 line-ups. The sample size is still relatively small, but between the various line-ups, each player with at least 3 appearances logs more than 50 minutes total, others substantially more.

    Gordon Hayward: 7
    Derrick Favors: 6
    Jamaal Tinsley: 6
    Enes Kanter: 5
    Marvin Williams: 5
    DeMarre Carroll: 5
    Paul Millsap: 4
    Al Jefferson: 3
    Mo Williams: 3
    Randy Foye: 3
    Earl Watson: 1
    Jeremy Evans: 1
    Alec Burks: 0
    I dunno, the biggest argument for me against using +/- to compare bench players to starters is that it doesn't take into account who you're playing against. I mean, Marvin and Foye will see more minutes against guys like Durant and Lebron whereas Gordon sees minutes against your Lance Stephensons...
    I think we all agree that our bench is superior to most benches in the NBA though.

  6. #35
    Senior Member orangello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weezur View Post
    I dunno, the biggest argument for me against using +/- to compare bench players to starters is that it doesn't take into account who you're playing against. I mean, Marvin and Foye will see more minutes against guys like Durant and Lebron whereas Gordon sees minutes against your Lance Stephensons...
    I think we all agree that our bench is superior to most benches in the NBA though.
    Not true. Gordon has played slightly more games coming off the bench than he has starting but he is also closing out a lot of games. I think there is some value to this.

    Also, Corbin plays the starters longer than most coaches during the first quarter. I would also say that guys like Kanter and Favors are playing about half of their time against the starters for the other team. I think that there is some truth to the statistics that IB is displaying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    So I was very mad about the game, but I wasn't going to vent here, because you guys all feel the same way. However, Ty's postgame interview got my blood boiling. On why he let Trey and Gordon play while having bad games, "You gotta let them battle through it because that's what you gotta do." Really are you kidding me. You have to balls to say that when you pulled Alec after 16 minutes against LAC and Kanter got 19 minutes toinght?

  7. #36
    Senior Member Weezur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangello View Post
    Not true. Gordon has played slightly more games coming off the bench than he has starting but he is also closing out a lot of games. I think there is some value to this.

    Also, Corbin plays the starters longer than most coaches during the first quarter. I would also say that guys like Kanter and Favors are playing about half of their time against the starters for the other team. I think that there is some truth to the statistics that IB is displaying.
    True. True.

  8. #37
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBProfane View Post
    Okay, here's a broadened picture of the +/- statistics I was presenting earlier. I took the top 10 most effective 5 man rotations for the Jazz, and here's how many times each players appeared in those 10 line-ups. The sample size is still relatively small, but between the various line-ups, each player with at least 3 appearances logs more than 50 minutes total, others substantially more.

    Gordon Hayward: 7
    Derrick Favors: 6
    Jamaal Tinsley: 6
    Enes Kanter: 5
    Marvin Williams: 5
    DeMarre Carroll: 5
    Paul Millsap: 4
    Al Jefferson: 3
    Mo Williams: 3
    Randy Foye: 3
    Earl Watson: 1
    Jeremy Evans: 1
    Alec Burks: 0
    What I've found getting into this stuff is that Foye and Haywad can't play together. Haywad is a great 2 and so is Foye (in the right situation), but playing two 2's together is too easy to exploit from a size standpoint. Haywad might get good enough to guard bigger threes, I dunno. Foye isn't big enough to guard 2's, even though he works his ass off trying. Add an undersized 2 and an undersized 3 and you're asking for trouble. Any other combination of Foye or Haywad with Marvin or Carroll has been pretty damn effective. This is why playing Haywad off the bench has worked so well.

    The only other combo that has been noticeably & statistically poor is the Millsap as a three experiment.
    .
    The easiest way to interpret this is Jazz interior defense is only bad when the exterior defense is before.
    No Mediocrity

  9. #38
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    What I've found getting into this stuff is that Foye and Haywad can't play together. Haywad is a great 2 and so is Foye (in the right situation), but playing two 2's together is too easy to exploit from a size standpoint. Haywad might get good enough to guard bigger threes, I dunno. Foye isn't big enough to guard 2's, even though he works his ass off trying. Add an undersized 2 and an undersized 3 and you're asking for trouble. Any other combination of Foye or Haywad with Marvin or Carroll has been pretty damn effective. This is why playing Haywad off the bench has worked so well.

    The only other combo that has been noticeably & statistically poor is the Millsap as a three experiment.
    .
    The easiest way to interpret this is Jazz interior defense is only bad when the exterior defense is before.
    Or you could watch the games and see jefferson not even trying to stop the guy from getting to the hoop..... true that the perimeter guys get beat, but then al just stands there, alot of the time not even raising his arms up, and almost never fouling the guy to make him earn it from the line and think about going inside next time.

  10. #39
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Or you could watch the games and see jefferson not even trying to stop the guy from getting to the hoop..... true that the perimeter guys get beat, but then al just stands there, alot of the time not even raising his arms up, and almost never fouling the guy to make him earn it from the line and think about going inside next time.
    How's your one track mind doing today Foggy?
    Skip. Skip.
    How's your one track mind doing today Foggy?
    No Mediocrity

  11. #40
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    What I've found getting into this stuff is that Foye and Haywad can't play together. Haywad is a great 2 and so is Foye (in the right situation), but playing two 2's together is too easy to exploit from a size standpoint. Haywad might get good enough to guard bigger threes, I dunno. Foye isn't big enough to guard 2's, even though he works his ass off trying. Add an undersized 2 and an undersized 3 and you're asking for trouble. Any other combination of Foye or Haywad with Marvin or Carroll has been pretty damn effective. This is why playing Haywad off the bench has worked so well.

    The only other combo that has been noticeably & statistically poor is the Millsap as a three experiment.
    .
    The easiest way to interpret this is Jazz interior defense is only bad when the exterior defense is before.
    What makes the lineups so tough to work out is that Millsap and Marvin are the only guys on the team with size that can defend the perimeter. Something we are still waiting on with Favs just like Kanter's post offense.

    Also the +/- stuff reinforces, it seems, my opinion that closing games with Marvin on the floor would improve the team more than any other one thing lineup-wise. He really helps the rebounding problem in particular.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

  12. #41
    Senior Member gregbroncs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    In 21 minutes only. Too small sample size.
    They are +51 in 21 minutes? Holy hell we need to see that lineup for 20+ minutes for a few games. We would be blowing everybody off of the floor.
    Welcome aboard Snyder, Exum and Hood. Here is to hoping this season is more entertaining than the last 3.

  13. #42
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    How's your one track mind doing today Foggy?
    Skip. Skip.
    How's your one track mind doing today Foggy?
    Pot calling the kettle black.

    My mind is actually open to other ideas and can be changed, much different than yours.

  14. #43
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Notes View Post
    What makes the lineups so tough to work out is that Millsap and Marvin are the only guys on the team with size that can defend the perimeter. Something we are still waiting on with Favs just like Kanter's post offense.

    Also the +/- stuff reinforces, it seems, my opinion that closing games with Marvin on the floor would improve the team more than any other one thing lineup-wise. He really helps the rebounding problem in particular.
    Yeah. There's a reason they're called stretch 4's. Everyone was freaking out when Favors wasn't put in to guard Ryan Anderson. It was an obvious move by CoTy but the JF usuals called for his head regardless. Jefferson and Kanter sure as hell can't guard a stretch 4, and Favors will struggle every time while not making them pay equally on the offensive end.

    I think you were the one who made a point about Marvin closing games in another thread. To that, I like Carroll in their at the three as well. Anything but a Hayward-Foye combination is good, with the possible exception of Foye guarding another combo guard with Haywad on a small 3.
    No Mediocrity

  15. #44
    Senior Member Catchall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBProfane View Post
    I logged on the forum this morning to make this exact same post. It's very strange to me that everyone around the league (fans included) knows that Favors & Kanter both deserve more playing time. Why do the Jazz not realize this? Sure, Ty Corbin is ultimately responsible for how much PT these guys get every night, but Dennis Lindsey has to be watching these games and thinking it's time to trade Millsap or Jefferson, just so Corbin has to play Derrick and Enes more often. Kanter posts a positive +/- against Memphis, shoots perfect from the field and the line, and ends up with a team low 14 minutes. It's unfathomable to explain some of the rotation and coaching decisions from Ty.

    It's a wild and grand conspiracy, but are the Jazz purposefully limiting Favors & Kanters minutes so they can resign them for $8-10 mil/year instead of $13-14? I highly doubt it, but there is no other logical explanation for what is going on. The fact that Hayward has played about 30 minutes a game for a year or two pretty much kills the idea, but he also plays at a position where we are relatively thin on talent.

    I just have an awful feeling that we are going to alienate the future face(s) of our franchise if they don't see much playing time during their rookie deal. The Jazz front office seems to be content miring in mediocrity.
    Getting good trade value for Al and/or Millsap, plus our picks possibly, is the difference between making it to real contender status and being stuck under a 2nd-round ceiling. I think the Jazz are cautiously trying to make the right move while not fully showing their cards.

  16. #45
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    Yeah. There's a reason they're called stretch 4's. Everyone was freaking out when Favors wasn't put in to guard Ryan Anderson. It was an obvious move by CoTy but the JF usuals called for his head regardless. Jefferson and Kanter sure as hell can't guard a stretch 4, and Favors will struggle every time while not making them pay equally on the offensive end.

    I think you were the one who made a point about Marvin closing games in another thread. To that, I like Carroll in their at the three as well. Anything but a Hayward-Foye combination is good, with the possible exception of Foye guarding another combo guard with Haywad on a small 3.
    Thats a good point.... i would rather have millsap guard anderson on the perimeter than favors.

    From what i recall on the play was paul and al had a simple miscommunication and paul got lost on a few screens.... Favors probably would not have done any better in that situation.
    I still think you should remove jeffy though and let favors play center for that defensive possesion, but it wasnt the reason anderson was open.

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