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  1. #1
    Senior Member Catchall's Avatar
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    Jazz are mediocre and on track to remain mediocre unless they make good moves

    Right now, the future of the Jazz is really in question. The team is obviously somewhere in the middle of the rebuilding process, but in terms of becoming a team that can get past the 2nd round of the playoffs, or even make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs, there are some doubts and some holes that need to be overcome. I know we talk about this all the time, but here are a few observations I have:

    * Mo Williams is not really a PG capable of running a contending team. He is more of a combo guard who could help run a two-guard front like Dallas used with Jason Kidd and Jason Terry during their championship run, but he needs a strong backcourt running mate to be effective, and he doesn't have one right now. He got completely disrupted by Mike Conley tonight. Maybe he was tired, but still. If KOC genuinely wants Mo to stay here until he retires, it means KOC's standards aren't very high.

    * Marvin Williams is not really an impact player. I guess we knew this already, but aside from his stable defense, he's not really a reliable contributor. Whether he stays with the team moving forward is neither here nor there.

    * Randy Foye is a journey-man combo guard who should come off the bench and help spread the floor. He's not really more than that. Whether he stays with the team is neither here nor there.

    * Our most promising young player is Enes Kanter. His size, athleticism, motor and IQ actually give him the most upside on the team right now. He plays with a lot of confidence and efficiency, and he's only 20 years old. He defends, rebounds, runs the floor, and can score inside or out to 15 feet against good defensive players. He still jams himself under the rim and doesn't handle double teams well, but he looks like a player we could build our offense around, given his potential to create a mismatch at the PF spot with his size and power. As soon as he learns to pass and hit a turn-around jumper, he's going to be a complete player. He has real All-Star potential, and I think he's likely to become the face of the franchise.

    * Derrick Favors has nice size and athleticism, but he doesn't seem to have the coordination, court awareness or IQ at this stage to be a go-to offensive player. He will probably be primarily a defensive specialist who is a third option on offense, something like a Jermaine O'Neal, or for those of you old enough to remember, think a young Elden Campbell.

    * Gordon Hayward is a nice role player and facilitator. If he hunkers down on defense, he can be a poor man's Bobby Jones. Offensively, I think he wants to be Dan Maejrle. His passing is an asset. He's a rotation player and maybe a starter. He's not Hornacek or Manu though. Those guys could shoot reliably.

    * Jefferson will probably be traded or will leave in free agency. There's been no talk of extending him. At all.

    * Millsap will probably be traded or will leave in free agency to be somebody's David West for 4 years and $40 - $45 million.

    * Alec Burks: Does this guy even exist? Who knows where his game is at?


    What we need:

    * A PG who can get our bigs the ball in a position to score without asking Gordon Hayward for help. I'm not sure if Brandon Jennings is that guy, but if I thought he were, I'd offer Paul Millsap or try to take him back in a package for Al Jefferson. Maybe we also try to draft CJ McCollum.

    * A legit, athletic scoring wing, preferably a shooting guard. It would sure be great if we could draft Archie Goodwin, but that seems like a long shot unless we trade out a vet or two and become willing to slip in the standings and draft in the top 8 range.

    * Another dynamic PF/C who can complete a 3-man rotation with Favors and Kanter. Someone like a younger Nene.


    The team should (hopefully) look very different next year.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catchall View Post
    Right now, the future of the Jazz is really in question. The team is obviously somewhere in the middle of the rebuilding process, but in terms of becoming a team that can get past the 2nd round of the playoffs, or even make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs, there are some doubts and some holes that need to be overcome. I know we talk about this all the time, but here are a few observations I have:

    * Mo Williams is not really a PG capable of running a contending team. He is more of a combo guard who could help run a two-guard front like Dallas used with Jason Kidd and Jason Terry during their championship run, but he needs a strong backcourt running mate to be effective, and he doesn't have one right now. He got completely disrupted by Mike Conley tonight. Maybe he was tired, but still. If KOC genuinely wants Mo to stay here until he retires, it means KOC's standards aren't very high.

    * Marvin Williams is not really an impact player. I guess we knew this already, but aside from his stable defense, he's not really a reliable contributor. Whether he stays with the team moving forward is neither here nor there.

    * Randy Foye is a journey-man combo guard who should come off the bench and help spread the floor. He's not really more than that. Whether he stays with the team is neither here nor there.

    * Our most promising young player is Enes Kanter. His size, athleticism, motor and IQ actually give him the most upside on the team right now. He plays with a lot of confidence and efficiency, and he's only 20 years old. He defends, rebounds, runs the floor, and can score inside or out to 15 feet against good defensive players. He still jams himself under the rim and doesn't handle double teams well, but he looks like a player we could build our offense around, given his potential to create a mismatch at the PF spot with his size and power. As soon as he learns to pass and hit a turn-around jumper, he's going to be a complete player. He has real All-Star potential, and I think he's likely to become the face of the franchise.

    * Derrick Favors has nice size and athleticism, but he doesn't seem to have the coordination, court awareness or IQ at this stage to be a go-to offensive player. He will probably be primarily a defensive specialist who is a third option on offense, something like a Jermaine O'Neal, or for those of you old enough to remember, think a young Elden Campbell.

    * Gordon Hayward is a nice role player and facilitator. If he hunkers down on defense, he can be a poor man's Bobby Jones. Offensively, I think he wants to be Dan Maejrle. His passing is an asset. He's a rotation player and maybe a starter. He's not Hornacek or Manu though. Those guys could shoot reliably.

    * Jefferson will probably be traded or will leave in free agency. There's been no talk of extending him. At all.

    * Millsap will probably be traded or will leave in free agency to be somebody's David West for 4 years and $40 - $45 million.

    * Alec Burks: Does this guy even exist? Who knows where his game is at?


    What we need:

    * A PG who can get our bigs the ball in a position to score without asking Gordon Hayward for help. I'm not sure if Brandon Jennings is that guy, but if I thought he were, I'd offer Paul Millsap or try to take him back in a package for Al Jefferson. Maybe we also try to draft CJ McCollum.

    * A legit, athletic scoring wing, preferably a shooting guard. It would sure be great if we could draft Archie Goodwin, but that seems like a long shot unless we trade out a vet or two and become willing to slip in the standings and draft in the top 8 range.

    * Another dynamic PF/C who can complete a 3-man rotation with Favors and Kanter. Someone like a younger Nene.


    The team should (hopefully) look very different next year.
    Nice job. Unfortunately your post makes too much sense so it will not happen. The Jazz will find one year rent-a-vets to come in play over developing our young guys. These young guys will either leave or they will not develop into anything but rent-a-vet type of a career. Then the Jazz will overpay for players who are average to slightly good. Right now, I am resigned to the fact that Utah will be a mid playoff team for years.

  3. #3
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catchall View Post
    Right now, the future of the Jazz is really in question. The team is obviously somewhere in the middle of the rebuilding process, but in terms of becoming a team that can get past the 2nd round of the playoffs, or even make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs, there are some doubts and some holes that need to be overcome. I know we talk about this all the time, but here are a few observations I have:

    * Mo Williams is not really a PG capable of running a contending team. He is more of a combo guard who could help run a two-guard front like Dallas used with Jason Kidd and Jason Terry during their championship run, but he needs a strong backcourt running mate to be effective, and he doesn't have one right now. He got completely disrupted by Mike Conley tonight. Maybe he was tired, but still. If KOC genuinely wants Mo to stay here until he retires, it means KOC's standards aren't very high.

    * Marvin Williams is not really an impact player. I guess we knew this already, but aside from his stable defense, he's not really a reliable contributor. Whether he stays with the team moving forward is neither here nor there.

    * Randy Foye is a journey-man combo guard who should come off the bench and help spread the floor. He's not really more than that. Whether he stays with the team is neither here nor there.

    * Our most promising young player is Enes Kanter. His size, athleticism, motor and IQ actually give him the most upside on the team right now. He plays with a lot of confidence and efficiency, and he's only 20 years old. He defends, rebounds, runs the floor, and can score inside or out to 15 feet against good defensive players. He still jams himself under the rim and doesn't handle double teams well, but he looks like a player we could build our offense around, given his potential to create a mismatch at the PF spot with his size and power. As soon as he learns to pass and hit a turn-around jumper, he's going to be a complete player. He has real All-Star potential, and I think he's likely to become the face of the franchise.

    * Derrick Favors has nice size and athleticism, but he doesn't seem to have the coordination, court awareness or IQ at this stage to be a go-to offensive player. He will probably be primarily a defensive specialist who is a third option on offense, something like a Jermaine O'Neal, or for those of you old enough to remember, think a young Elden Campbell.

    * Gordon Hayward is a nice role player and facilitator. If he hunkers down on defense, he can be a poor man's Bobby Jones. Offensively, I think he wants to be Dan Maejrle. His passing is an asset. He's a rotation player and maybe a starter. He's not Hornacek or Manu though. Those guys could shoot reliably.

    * Jefferson will probably be traded or will leave in free agency. There's been no talk of extending him. At all.

    * Millsap will probably be traded or will leave in free agency to be somebody's David West for 4 years and $40 - $45 million.

    * Alec Burks: Does this guy even exist? Who knows where his game is at?


    What we need:

    * A PG who can get our bigs the ball in a position to score without asking Gordon Hayward for help. I'm not sure if Brandon Jennings is that guy, but if I thought he were, I'd offer Paul Millsap or try to take him back in a package for Al Jefferson. Maybe we also try to draft CJ McCollum.

    * A legit, athletic scoring wing, preferably a shooting guard. It would sure be great if we could draft Archie Goodwin, but that seems like a long shot unless we trade out a vet or two and become willing to slip in the standings and draft in the top 8 range.

    * Another dynamic PF/C who can complete a 3-man rotation with Favors and Kanter. Someone like a younger Nene.


    The team should (hopefully) look very different next year.
    Nice post.
    Only thing i would say is that we might already have a legit athletic scoring wing that is a shooting guard.... i really think we are screwing up on the treatment and development of alec burks.

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  5. #4
    Senior Member gregbroncs's Avatar
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    I think the Love Burks is shown is a little out of hand. He looks like a decent prospect and should be playing. But is he really a better option than Carrolle? I don't think so right now. Is he a better option than Foye? Maybe going forward but with his lack of an outside shot probably does not fit with the other players on the team as well as Foye. Don't get me wrong he should be playing some. But not more than the 2 players seemingly in front of him.

    I wish he had shown a willingness and ability to pass so he could see minutes over Watson or Tinsley in a backcourt with Hayward. But he has not so his minutes are hard to come by.
    Welcome aboard Snyder, Exum and Hood. Here is to hoping this season is more entertaining than the last 3.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catchall View Post
    Right now, the future of the Jazz is really in question. The team is obviously somewhere in the middle of the rebuilding process,
    Nice post. I pulled out the part above because I do not think the coach and maybe management agrees with you. I am pretty sure the coach thinks he has the guys that can challenge anyone. He will point to our beating the Spurs to prove it. If we were "obviously rebuilding", would Kanter and Favors get scrub minutes? Would Burks ride pine? Would Hayward get benched when he misses 5 shots? Would the offense revolve endlessly around a veteran black hole?

  7. #6
    Senior Member Hekate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregbroncs View Post
    I think the Love Burks is shown is a little out of hand. He looks like a decent prospect and should be playing. But is he really a better option than Carrolle? I don't think so right now. Is he a better option than Foye? Maybe going forward but with his lack of an outside shot probably does not fit with the other players on the team as well as Foye. Don't get me wrong he should be playing some. But not more than the 2 players seemingly in front of him.

    I wish he had shown a willingness and ability to pass so he could see minutes over Watson or Tinsley in a backcourt with Hayward. But he has not so his minutes are hard to come by.
    I don't think he should play more than Foye but Foye is clearly playing more than he should. Cut some of those minutes and give them to Burks. At least he showed he improved his shooting in pre-season.
    Last edited by Hekate; 12-16-2012 at 02:39 PM.

  8. #7
    Senior Member infection's Avatar
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    I wouldn't ever worry about the PG spot at this point, nor hold my breath. We already have some obvious decisions well within reach by committing to getting minutes to our developing front court but we refuse. If we can't act on things that are already in our hand there's no way we could ever advance to something that even approaches a hypothetical realm. I didn't mind the Marvin trade, but I didn't quite see the point of it given his contract had an extra year that Harris' didn't. I didn't mind the Foye signing, but honestly didn't see the point in it. The same can be said for last year's Howard signing. Did that yield us more than our status quo, in either short term or long term? I have no idea what we're doing with Burks. He wasn't my guy in the draft and I didn't think he fit in as well. My expectations aren't very high, but despite that I can't see any justification for the moves we've made and the lack of playing time we've given him. There are only two possibilities: 1. He's a good player and we're playing journmen (who are really just holding down the fort and not having much an impact for good or ill) above him or 2. He's not that good and apparently we screwed the pooch with one of our lottery picks two years ago. Others may argue for option 3. This is part of a plan where Corbin/management know best and they're getting the most out of their guys by the way they've structured things. Clearly this idea could only be induced by snorting blow out of the back of someone's ass.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Catchall's Avatar
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    I think the jazz tend to be slow and conservative in how they bring young players along, both in terms of how many minutes they get and in terms of what they're allowed to do out on the floor. There must be something the coaches want Burks to do out on the floor that he's not doing. The organization has nothing to gain by playing Foye close to 30 minutes per night.

    I think the Jazz want to put a fairly competitive product out on the floor every year--a team that can challenge the top teams in the league, have a chance to win more than half their games, and make the playoffs. That seems to be the Jazz's brand. I think they choose veteran FAs to fill in the gaps every year because they want to be more competitive and give fans the belief that the team can win and be fun to root for. They're looking for players that can fill in the holes and that they can sell to the fans. That's where guys like Marvin Williams and Randy Foye come into play. Overall, those are good signings. They didn't cost much at least.

    The thing is, after this year, about half the team is going to leave. There's been no talk of re-signing Foye or Jefferson. Millsap is obviously on the bubble. Mo also expires this year doesn't he?

  10. #9
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregbroncs View Post
    But is he (Burks) really a better option than Carrolle?
    Burks has a completely different skill set than Carroll. Carroll's ceiling is being a nice role player.
    Quote Originally Posted by every forum dreg
    I think he can play SF

  11. #10
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catchall View Post
    I think the jazz tend to be slow and conservative in how they bring young players along, both in terms of how many minutes they get and in terms of what they're allowed to do out on the floor. There must be something the coaches want Burks to do out on the floor that he's not doing. The organization has nothing to gain by playing Foye close to 30 minutes per night.

    I think the Jazz want to put a fairly competitive product out on the floor every year--a team that can challenge the top teams in the league, have a chance to win more than half their games, and make the playoffs. That seems to be the Jazz's brand. I think they choose veteran FAs to fill in the gaps every year because they want to be more competitive and give fans the belief that the team can win and be fun to root for. They're looking for players that can fill in the holes and that they can sell to the fans. That's where guys like Marvin Williams and Randy Foye come into play. Overall, those are good signings. They didn't cost much at least.

    The thing is, after this year, about half the team is going to leave. There's been no talk of re-signing Foye or Jefferson. Millsap is obviously on the bubble. Mo also expires this year doesn't he?
    Yes. Along with Carroll, Tinsley, Watson, and literally everyone on the team outside of The Four, Evans, and Marv if he opts in.

    Also, your post is unbelievably depressing and I've been trying to convince myself for many years that this team's only true goal is a championship and I've seen little evidence of that. The treatment of Randy Foye by this organization is the lynchpin piece of evidence that this team's first priority is not a championship.
    Quote Originally Posted by every forum dreg
    I think he can play SF

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catchall View Post
    What we need:

    * A PG who can get our bigs the ball in a position to score without asking Gordon Hayward for help. I'm not sure if Brandon Jennings is that guy, but if I thought he were, I'd offer Paul Millsap or try to take him back in a package for Al Jefferson. Maybe we also try to draft CJ McCollum.
    calderon for sapman. done.

  13. #12
    Senior Member NAOS's Avatar
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    The UTAH JAZZ, where a "winning culture" somehow gets in the way of "championship vision".
    ___#! Rudy Fan___
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  14. #13
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUMBERICA View Post
    Burks has a completely different skill set than Carroll. Carroll's ceiling is being a nice role player.
    And another thing.... Carroll is a small forward, Burks is a shooting guard.

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    Senior Member orangello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOS View Post
    The UTAH JAZZ, where a "winning culture" somehow gets in the way of "championship vision".
    Post of the year? You've got my vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    So I was very mad about the game, but I wasn't going to vent here, because you guys all feel the same way. However, Ty's postgame interview got my blood boiling. On why he let Trey and Gordon play while having bad games, "You gotta let them battle through it because that's what you gotta do." Really are you kidding me. You have to balls to say that when you pulled Alec after 16 minutes against LAC and Kanter got 19 minutes toinght?

  16. #15
    Senior Member CitizenofCapua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOS View Post
    The UTAH JAZZ, where a "winning culture" somehow gets in the way of "championship vision".
    Well said. But if they really want to act in the direction of "winning culture", they would give more chance to young core. Cause its obvious they would already do much better than this "win now" vet squad.
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