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  1. #31
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    Infection: killing right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by every forum dreg
    I think he can play SF

  2. #32
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    To quickly add, most superstars get a chance not because they force their way onto the court, but that management gives them early and frequent opportunities. The path that John and Karl took to superstardom and the HOF is a pretty rare one, and it's frankly alarming that the Jazz think that that is the only path of development (as further evidenced by the embarrassment of how Sloan handled Deron in his rookie year [and very conceivably planted a poisonous seed very early in the process]).
    Quote Originally Posted by every forum dreg
    I think he can play SF

  3. #33
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    The more things change, the more they remain the same. Havent we seen this thread a gazillion times in the past 5 years in various forms and with various titles?
    Jazz have 4 legit lotto picks that they drafted and a couple(?) more players obtained from other teams who were also lotto picks. If despite all this, this is going to be a middle-of-the-pack team then what does it say about our talent scouting/development? You have 4 guys on the team who were top 10 picks, you expect atleast a couple of them to be making a lot of noise (borderline all star) in their second or third years.

  4. #34
    Moderator Revolution 9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    Where exactly, has he shown that he would play any semblence of defense? This year he has been consistently beat off the dribble, and definitely doesn't fight over screens.
    I guess we are seeing two different things Wolf. I haven't seen a lock down defender, but I've seen someone giving effort. I like what I see in limited samples. Take the LA game at home for example, he got right in Kobe's face and drew and offensive foul. He did a great job really effort wise, but being thrust in that situation. Another spot game he got mins in was Houston. He came in and had to guard Martin. Kevin drew a foul a hit a shot or two on him even though Burks was playing him hard. After that he settled down, and really controlled Martin even though
    they were obviously trying to pick on him.

    You just pulled out the weakest part out, ignored his scoring, Foye's inconsistent play, and tried to make a point.

    We disagree Wolf. Staying the course won't get us anywhere. Completely throwing your lotto pick out of the rotation
    is risky.
    "Hayward can be a #1?"......"Maybe if he goes down to Fort Wayne...DLeague" -ESPN

  5. #35
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    gonna go with wolf on this. burks hasn't blown me away with his defense or even his defensive effort.

    the sample is certainly limited this year but unfortunately i don't think he's doing enough to warrant more minutes most of the time.
    people talk about him being a scorer but i'm seeing a guy who always looks like he's out to get his.

    frankly, our team doesn't need that right now. there are better offensive options whatever unit he's playing with and he needs to get with that program.
    possibly that's part of the reason he isn't seeing the court, but i couldn't say for sure.
    i do know that other 'scorers' in our system have been crucified by fans as chuckers for far less shots per minute but for some reason burks gets a 30 page thread of unconditional support.

    anyway, i hope the kid gets his game together and starts making the most of his opportunities. demarre has forced his way into consistent playing time on the back of what i would consider a far inferior skill set overall. foye's ability to shoot the long ball is the only thing guaranteeing him minutes at this point and that's probably fair enough given we desperately needed outside shooting this offseason. take him out of the equation altogether and we start looking a bit shaky. despite the holes in his game foye would be good for 20 mins off the bench even on a good finals team.

    as to the opening post, i would agree with some of the player evaluations. mo would be perfect for us in a jason terry (mavs era) type role. favours probably isn't going to be an all-star but should be very useful. kanter will be an effective big for years to come but still has a long way to go. marvin could be replaced by a first round pick in most drafts. either al or millsap could be solid starters/contributors on a very competitive team but we need something better than both as our first option if we want a run at a championship.

    overall, i'm not disappointed or thrilled with our season so far. we're sitting about where i expected. the young guys are coming along slowly. we still can't win on the road. i think the jazz are trying to stay competitive and develop their young guys at the same time and only time will tell how successful we've been. i don't know how this forum would react if we actually traded our veterans, went with the young guys and spent a couple of years in the lottery like okc did. i don't think people would enjoy that as much as they think they might.

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  7. #36
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salo View Post
    gonna go with wolf on this. burks hasn't blown me away with his defense or even his defensive effort.

    the sample is certainly limited this year but unfortunately i don't think he's doing enough to warrant more minutes most of the time.
    people talk about him being a scorer but i'm seeing a guy who always looks like he's out to get his.

    frankly, our team doesn't need that right now. there are better offensive options whatever unit he's playing with and he needs to get with that program.
    possibly that's part of the reason he isn't seeing the court, but i couldn't say for sure.
    i do know that other 'scorers' in our system have been crucified by fans as chuckers for far less shots per minute but for some reason burks gets a 30 page thread of unconditional support.

    anyway, i hope the kid gets his game together and starts making the most of his opportunities. demarre has forced his way into consistent playing time on the back of what i would consider a far inferior skill set overall. foye's ability to shoot the long ball is the only thing guaranteeing him minutes at this point and that's probably fair enough given we desperately needed outside shooting this offseason. take him out of the equation altogether and we start looking a bit shaky. despite the holes in his game foye would be good for 20 mins off the bench even on a good finals team.

    as to the opening post, i would agree with some of the player evaluations. mo would be perfect for us in a jason terry (mavs era) type role. favours probably isn't going to be an all-star but should be very useful. kanter will be an effective big for years to come but still has a long way to go. marvin could be replaced by a first round pick in most drafts. either al or millsap could be solid starters/contributors on a very competitive team but we need something better than both as our first option if we want a run at a championship.

    overall, i'm not disappointed or thrilled with our season so far. we're sitting about where i expected. the young guys are coming along slowly. we still can't win on the road. i think the jazz are trying to stay competitive and develop their young guys at the same time and only time will tell how successful we've been. i don't know how this forum would react if we actually traded our veterans, went with the young guys and spent a couple of years in the lottery like okc did. i don't think people would enjoy that as much as they think they might.

    So just keep giving foye his 30 minutes per game and he will become the allstar that this team so desperately needs right?

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by vj_74 View Post
    The more things change, the more they remain the same. Havent we seen this thread a gazillion times in the past 5 years in various forms and with various titles?
    Jazz have 4 legit lotto picks that they drafted and a couple(?) more players obtained from other teams who were also lotto picks. If despite all this, this is going to be a middle-of-the-pack team then what does it say about our talent scouting/development? You have 4 guys on the team who were top 10 picks, you expect atleast a couple of them to be making a lot of noise (borderline all star) in their second or third years.
    Henry Abbot had an article on this a while back-

    Basically players that use a lot of possessions poorly in the beginning of their career tend to use them well later.
    Build a man a fire; keep him warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of this life.

    Repeating the same actions and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

  9. #38
    Senior Member gregbroncs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekate View Post
    I don't think he should play more than Foye but Foye is clearly playing more than he should. Cut some of those minutes and give them to Burks. At least he showed he improved his shooting in pre-season.
    All of our vets are playing too many minutes. Jefferson, Millsap, Foye, Mo, Tinsley, Watson, and Marvin are all playing too many minutes IMO. Favors, Kanter, Burks and maybe even Hayward should be playing more.
    Welcome aboard Snyder, Exum and Hood. Here is to hoping this season is more entertaining than the last 3.

  10. #39
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregbroncs View Post
    All of our vets are playing too many minutes. Jefferson, Millsap, Foye, Mo, Tinsley, Watson, and Marvin are all playing too many minutes IMO. Favors, Kanter, Burks and maybe even Hayward should be playing more.
    Most of us agree with this.... too bad corbin does not.

  11. #40
    Senior Member Catchall's Avatar
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    The way the Jazz develop their players is more gradual than just throwing them into the fire. The Jazz did a pretty decent job of giving Deron Williams, AK, Memo and Boozer ample opportunity to become star players. It's ultimately up to those players themselves to want it and to develop their games. Right now, I think the FO is just trying to get good value for Al and Millsap in trades if they can and, at the same time, making the young players earn their minutes on the floor. Al and Sap have been in rumors for a year. It's like a retailer trying to move out the old product at a good price before bringing in the new merchandise, or a private equity investor protecting the value of his portfolio of assets.

    The front office made a strategic shift after their experience in 2007 - 2010. They had maxed out DWill and AK intending for them to be the two premier talents on the team, and they brought in Boozer and Okur to complement them. However, the Jazz kept getting punked by the Lakers' twin-towers. Since then, the Jazz committed themselves to getting talented bigs at the top of the lottery. I'd be pretty sure they still want to add young talent. What happened last year with Houston and Golden State tanking out of the playoffs probably threw a wrench in the Jazz's plans. The Jazz really, really wanted Lillard and probably would have taken a player like Barnes, Ross, Lamb, PJII, etc. if they had the chance.

    So at this juncture, the FO has to decide if they're committed to bringing in elite young talent to round out the team, or if they're going to continue this wayward vet strategy to keep the team at their current level. I think they still want young talent. If they could trade Jefferson in a deal that includes a nice lottery pick, I think they'd do it definitely. There are a few teams that could do this.

    Those who think the Lakers' recent championships were because of Kobe need to remember that the Lakers were a #7 and #8 seed getting bounced in the first round prior to the Gasol trade and prior to Bynum developing. That was when Kobe was playing at an MVP level.

    I'd still take a flyer on Derrick Williams, btw if he's available in a trade. I also think Terrence Jones could be a good Lamar Odom-type player and replace what Millsap does.

  12. #41
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vj_74 View Post
    Jazz have 4 legit lotto picks that they drafted and a couple(?) more players obtained from other teams who were also lotto picks. If despite all this, this is going to be a middle-of-the-pack team then what does it say about our talent scouting/development? You have 4 guys on the team who were top 10 picks, you expect atleast a couple of them to be making a lot of noise (borderline all star) in their second or third years.
    Quote Originally Posted by NUMBERICA View Post
    Most superstars get a chance not because they force their way onto the court, but that management gives them early and frequent opportunities. The path that John and Karl took to superstardom and the HOF is a pretty rare one, and it's frankly alarming that the Jazz think that that is the only path of development (as further evidenced by the embarrassment of how Sloan handled Deron in his rookie year [and very conceivably planted a poisonous seed very early in the process]).
    yeah
    Quote Originally Posted by every forum dreg
    I think he can play SF

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    So just keep giving foye his 30 minutes per game and he will become the allstar that this team so desperately needs right?
    not exactly what i'm getting at champ. i was pretty specific on foye and burks so i'm not sure how you f*cked that one up.

    but if we need to go down that road, what you're saying is give minutes to burks even though he's out there free-wheeling, playing shaky D and shooting horrible percentages so that he can undoubtedly turn into the all-star this team so desperately needs, right?

  14. #43
    Moderator Revolution 9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salo View Post
    gonna go with wolf on this. burks hasn't blown me away with his defense or even his defensive effort.

    the sample is certainly limited this year but unfortunately i don't think he's doing enough to warrant more minutes most of the time.
    people talk about him being a scorer but i'm seeing a guy who always looks like he's out to get his.

    frankly, our team doesn't need that right now. there are better offensive options whatever unit he's playing with and he needs to get with that program.
    possibly that's part of the reason he isn't seeing the court, but i couldn't say for sure.
    i do know that other 'scorers' in our system have been crucified by fans as chuckers for far less shots per minute but for some reason burks gets a 30 page thread of unconditional support.

    anyway, i hope the kid gets his game together and starts making the most of his opportunities. demarre has forced his way into consistent playing time on the back of what i would consider a far inferior skill set overall. foye's ability to shoot the long ball is the only thing guaranteeing him minutes at this point and that's probably fair enough given we desperately needed outside shooting this offseason. take him out of the equation altogether and we start looking a bit shaky. despite the holes in his game foye would be good for 20 mins off the bench even on a good finals team.

    as to the opening post, i would agree with some of the player evaluations. mo would be perfect for us in a jason terry (mavs era) type role. favours probably isn't going to be an all-star but should be very useful. kanter will be an effective big for years to come but still has a long way to go. marvin could be replaced by a first round pick in most drafts. either al or millsap could be solid starters/contributors on a very competitive team but we need something better than both as our first option if we want a run at a championship.

    overall, i'm not disappointed or thrilled with our season so far. we're sitting about where i expected. the young guys are coming along slowly. we still can't win on the road. i think the jazz are trying to stay competitive and develop their young guys at the same time and only time will tell how successful we've been. i don't know how this forum would react if we actually traded our veterans, went with the young guys and spent a couple of years in the lottery like okc did. i don't think people would enjoy that as much as they think they might.
    Watch the Lakers game again, and watch him on both sides of the floor. Get back to me when you are ready to apologize.
    "Hayward can be a #1?"......"Maybe if he goes down to Fort Wayne...DLeague" -ESPN

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    haha! yeah sure thing buddy - i'll get right on that.

    i presume we're still talking about burks here and we're obviously gonna have to agree to disagree on it before this turns into a ten page sh*tfight.

    (for the record though, pulling out a single instance of satisfactory defensive effort doesn't make you any more right than me if i were to direct you to any one of his boneheaded and laissez faire nights.)

    like i stated in my first post; i'm all for the guy getting it together and earning some playing time. i don't know why he's not getting any minutes but i'm sure as hell not going to apologise to anyone for it. so many on here seem to think they've got it all figured out - fire corbin and burks becomes an all-star. trade jefferson and we'll win a title. it's gotten well beyond comical. if any of us had any real credentials, insight or unique knowledge about the situation we'd be on a sideline somewhere getting paid, not talking smack on a forum and pointing fingers at coaches and execs for their favorite unproven player not turning into their personal basketball wet dream.

    passion and support for your team is one thing but it just seems to me like too many people around here are ready to turn vigilante over a guy like burks who for all we've learned so far could possibly be the next kirk snyder, deshawn stevenson, morris almond, junie lewis or corey freakin crowder. what happened to all the intelligent conversation that used to go down?

    anyway, i'm out.

    go jazz etc.

  16. #45
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    Comparing Carroll to Burks is retarded. Carroll is a tough energy guy who can sometimes shoot. He is a valuable role player. His best skill is playing hard all the time.

    Burks is a superior athlete and basketball player. He is an inferior role player to Carroll. Yes, Burks' defensive effort needs to become more consistent. When his effort is there his defense is very good. Burks might be the best finisher on the team. He certainly the best penetrator. We need to find a way to maximize his talents. Perhaps he is suited to be a scorer off the bench.

    Also if you are focusing on who is better for this team right now. Carroll fits the role better. However Burks' talent is far superior. So you have to make a choice is Burks talented enough to be a star? If so you live with the growing pains. If he isn't then you made a mistake. Burks isn't going to be a very good role player.
    Build a man a fire; keep him warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of this life.

    Repeating the same actions and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

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