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  1. #16
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    Optimizing this squad for wins now, the Jazz trade Kanter and X for a top flight point guard. A) that's not going to happen, and B) they still aren't good enough to contend with an Al/Sap/Favors rotation + Rondo i.e. + whatever combo of Haywad/Ma/Carroll/Foye is left.

    Kanter is the only one of The Four remaining in the All Star Potential category. His offense is very rough and limited, but shows much better potential than Favors.
    Favors has added a nice little baseline fade away. That shot is unguardable with his length, and will give him a foundation to add more moves to. It's been a nice play for those who've perfected it (Boozer, Rasheed) & I think Favors can too. He'll also learn the ability to pass into the high post from here if he's doubled.
    Corbin CoTy.
    Z-Bo & Gasol? That's a high reach. Z-Bo is bull down low, very craft & quick. Hard to see Kanter scoring like Randolph at this point. If he ever can then he'll be a legitimate MVP candidate IMO. Neither will ever pass as well as Gasol.

  2. #17
    Senior Member Xsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    Meanwhile, Kanter has a worse defensive rebound percentage (what we are really struggling with right now), a 10 point lower offensive rating, and turns the ball over at more than double the rate of Al.

    Favors is shooting 44%, has a 8 point lower offensive rating than Paul, and has no offensive moves to speak of.

    Not to mention they both get the **** blocked out of them.

    Playing the youngins isn't the cure-all you guys claim it to be.
    I don't think most of us even think the young guys are a cure-all.

    I think most of us just realize that Paul and/or Al are as good as gone after this season no matter what. We're NOT winning the championship this year. So why not give the young guys the starting experience they need before the next season begins?
    http://jazzfanz.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1889&dateline=1332058703

  3. #18
    Senior Member orangello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purch View Post
    Lets assume the Jazz front office trades Al and Mo for an upgrade at the point. And lets assume they trade Millsap for a good backup big and a draft pick ( Or something lol, doesn't really matter)

    Do they need a pass first pg to reach their full potential? Yes. Calderon is the best realistic target.

    Is Kanter much more suited to being a first scoring option than Favors? Yes

    Does Favors have the abilty to be a Tyson Chandler/Kg level defensive anchor? Yes to Tyson but he needs more intensity to be KG-like


    What does Favors do that makes him a better option than Millsap going forward? Defend multiple positions and creates fear around the rim

    What does Millsap still do better than Favors? Mid-range game and pass

    What does Kanter do that makes him a better option than Jefferson going forward? Hustle and most importantly doesn't need the ball every possession. Also fights for most rebounds which in turn seems to allow others to get the rebound if he is not able to.

    What does Jefferson still do better than Kanter? Score and score in the clutch

    Do they have abilty to reach the production of Z-Bo and Gasol? They will be a better defending duo but they will not be the offensive duo that those two are.


    I already know where I stand on these two, but what do you guys think?

    Does that help you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    So I was very mad about the game, but I wasn't going to vent here, because you guys all feel the same way. However, Ty's postgame interview got my blood boiling. On why he let Trey and Gordon play while having bad games, "You gotta let them battle through it because that's what you gotta do." Really are you kidding me. You have to balls to say that when you pulled Alec after 16 minutes against LAC and Kanter got 19 minutes toinght?

  4. #19
    Senior Member LunaticWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xsy View Post
    I don't think most of us even think the young guys are a cure-all.

    I think most of us just realize that Paul and/or Al are as good as gone after this season no matter what. We're NOT winning the championship this year. So why not give the young guys the starting experience they need before the next season begins?
    And burn your bridge to Paul and Jefferson in the process? When you need to keep one of them, as it is unlikely that BOTH Kanter and Favors turn out to be great?

    You guys really don't think these things through. The Jazz are playing this the right way. Just watch.
    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

  5. #20
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    And burn your bridge to Paul and Jefferson in the process? When you need to keep one of them, as it is unlikely that BOTH Kanter and Favors turn out to be great?

    You guys really don't think these things through. The Jazz are playing this the right way. Just watch.
    Instead they are doing thier best to burn the bridges with with kanter and favors right now.

  6. #21
    Senior Member orangello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    This is where lunatic, kennykyle, or franklin come in and say "but that is only because favors and kanter play against back ups".
    Yep. There is some truth to that but I don't think that it explains the whole thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    So I was very mad about the game, but I wasn't going to vent here, because you guys all feel the same way. However, Ty's postgame interview got my blood boiling. On why he let Trey and Gordon play while having bad games, "You gotta let them battle through it because that's what you gotta do." Really are you kidding me. You have to balls to say that when you pulled Alec after 16 minutes against LAC and Kanter got 19 minutes toinght?

  7. #22
    Senior Member orangello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    Meanwhile, Kanter has a worse defensive rebound percentage (what we are really struggling with right now), a 10 point lower offensive rating, and turns the ball over at more than double the rate of Al.

    Favors is shooting 44%, has a 8 point lower offensive rating than Paul, and has no offensive moves to speak of.

    Not to mention they both get the **** blocked out of them.

    Playing the youngins isn't the cure-all you guys claim it to be.
    Maybe not immediately, but within a year I bet it would.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    So I was very mad about the game, but I wasn't going to vent here, because you guys all feel the same way. However, Ty's postgame interview got my blood boiling. On why he let Trey and Gordon play while having bad games, "You gotta let them battle through it because that's what you gotta do." Really are you kidding me. You have to balls to say that when you pulled Alec after 16 minutes against LAC and Kanter got 19 minutes toinght?

  8. #23
    Senior Member orangello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    a record of 6-1 without jefferson has to mean something though, right?
    I think that it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    So I was very mad about the game, but I wasn't going to vent here, because you guys all feel the same way. However, Ty's postgame interview got my blood boiling. On why he let Trey and Gordon play while having bad games, "You gotta let them battle through it because that's what you gotta do." Really are you kidding me. You have to balls to say that when you pulled Alec after 16 minutes against LAC and Kanter got 19 minutes toinght?

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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    And burn your bridge to Paul and Jefferson in the process? When you need to keep one of them, as it is unlikely that BOTH Kanter and Favors turn out to be great?

    You guys really don't think these things through. The Jazz are playing this the right way. Just watch.
    There's always trade value to consider. KOC can't give up cards by benching Paul or Jefferson. He needs to act like he wants to make the playoffs at all costs, which includes a role for both these guys. GM's will have to pay more if these guys are perceived as less getable.

  11. #25
    Senior Member orangello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Instead they are doing thier best to burn the bridges with with kanter and favors right now.
    This.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    So I was very mad about the game, but I wasn't going to vent here, because you guys all feel the same way. However, Ty's postgame interview got my blood boiling. On why he let Trey and Gordon play while having bad games, "You gotta let them battle through it because that's what you gotta do." Really are you kidding me. You have to balls to say that when you pulled Alec after 16 minutes against LAC and Kanter got 19 minutes toinght?

  12. #26
    Senior Member JJAS's Avatar
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    I've listened to the apologists on here talk about our offense without Apathetic Jefferson, and he has played brilliantly offensively in just enough games to accept the fool's gold. He defensive rebounds very well, he is a superstar teammate, and he is an ideal player to have on the team with respect to his conduct off the court. However, he is not even an efficient offensive player, and you will never (here me), never, even make the sixth seed with Jefferson as your main offensive player. You will also never make it out of the first round, ever, when he plays more than 30 minutes a game. His offensive is hit or miss, but his defense is disgraceful. He has no defensive pride and leads by example with his apathetic defensive play, letting guys drive right down the middle for easy baskets, just watching. The poisonous effect of this mindset is the most dangerous aspect of his play. You have to hold people accountable, and when your main players are the biggest offenders, you're in a bad spot. Not to put all of the blame on Al since I want Foye gone yesterday and possibly Mo as well. The both of them combined are, in the words of Kevin Pelton, "a historically bad rebounding backcourt."

    By keeping Al you hamper any growth that the young bigs might have, and it's not a matter of tanking, but there will be some growing pains, and the offense cannot run through them necessarily, although Kanter may turn out to be a very good offensive player and has held his own particularly after, get this, he started. When Ty's chewing his ass out for every little thing he does, but then turns the other cheek when the Vets look like the Washington Generals on defense, it's bound to mess with you a bit. In short, I am for trading A.J. this season, even though I like the guy a lot.

    As stated above, you also have to consider how the younglings are going to think about the Jazz when contracts come around. If these guys are the future, they need to start acting like it. I can't take another Millsap, AJ frontcourt, because I'm sick of the conservative middling tendencies of the Jazz brass.

  13. #27
    Senior Member Thee jazz fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    And burn your bridge to Paul and Jefferson in the process? When you need to keep one of them, as it is unlikely that BOTH Kanter and Favors turn out to be great?

    You guys really don't think these things through. The Jazz are playing this the right way. Just watch.
    If this was last year I'd agree with you, but both Favors and Kanter are better players this year. At some point you need to give them more responsiblity on offense and defense. It's hard to stay consistent with inconsistent minutes. It seems to me that whenever Kanter or Favors start they seem to step up.

    What I'm trying to say is at some point they need the opertunity to step up and become the focal point to this team.

    I'm not sure why your so worried about burning Sap and Al's bridges? No one thinks Sap and Al will be back next year, and that is the biggest flaw in your argument, Kanter and Favors need to be made ready to handle the full load for next year and beyond. In the meantime, we have other capable offensive players.

    1. With Sap and Al gone, we can put Hayward in the starting lineup, and he just might develop into the player we want and think he can be.

    2. This allows us to become a more pick'n roll team, which can be run by both Mo and Hayward. Which will lead to an overall better run offense, with better shot selection then having to watch the pg's just dump it into Al and Sap and watch them shoot fadeaways and Al's stupid push shot that misses more then it goes in.

    3. We can better utilize guys like Foye and Marvin. Remember when the jazz used to run plays to get open looks for Memo from threes. Most of the threes They take now are with hands in their faces, and we are still making them at a good clip. Just think if those two had more open looks.

    4. This one is simple, with Al and Sap gon our defensive rating probably goes through the roof. More defense = more fast breaking and easy shots. We don't get a lot of that with Sap and Al

    Like I said in my other post... Addition by subtraction.

    Any questions?

  14. #28
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    Sure, it'd be better.

    And our offensive production would fall off a cliff.
    I do think we would see some fall off in froncourt scoring but it will not be that dramatic. I also think it will be mostly temporary. Kanter went up against Howard and did just fine in LA.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

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    that tonight's gonna be a good good night; wooh hoo (x4) - For Cy

  15. #29
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    And burn your bridge to Paul and Jefferson in the process? When you need to keep one of them, as it is unlikely that BOTH Kanter and Favors turn out to be great?

    You guys really don't think these things through. The Jazz are playing this the right way. Just watch.
    Yes they do and to sugest otherwise is foolish. They simply come to a different conclussion than you. Heaven forbid.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

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    that tonight's gonna be a good good night; wooh hoo (x4) - For Cy

  16. #30
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    For me Jefferson is a scoring stud. One of the best big men with his back to the basket in the world. However watching people fly right by him when all he does is watch has soured me on him. Do I expect Al to catch them all or stop them from scoring? No, but I demand that he try.

    Hell for that kind of money I can play for the jazz, try my ass off and still give you the L.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

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    that tonight's gonna be a good good night; wooh hoo (x4) - For Cy

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