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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durrrr View Post
    Favors has started about ten games in his career. How many times did he foul it of those.

    He is rotting. In his third year in the league is still right at his career mpg of 21. Does his role increase with good play? Nope. He gets the same minutes every night. Meanwhile other teams are playing their lottery picks and they are growing while the Jazz piss theirs off and let them rot.

    We traded our all star for essentially him. Wtf is this team doing. He is in his third year. 21 mpg is inexcusable and unacceptable.

    If I'm him i take the qualifying offer from the Jazz to play 1 year. Play careful or have a "nagging injury" keep me out a lot of the year and leave this team and sign with a team that won't waste me away behind mediocre vets.

    I'm pissed right now and have been this whole season tbh. In case nobody noticed.

    clearly you're pissed. i just have two things to reply:
    1) re: the deron trade, anytime you trade away a star and don't get one back, you lose the trade.
    2) to say favors is rotting is to ignore the development we've seen in his game this year (especially) and to give the man himself no credit whatsoever. he didn't come here expecting to be the starter. he came as a VERY raw but exciting project player who was always going to take time to develop. you and others here have your thoughts on how to best do that. the jazz coaches have their own and i don't reckon you've got much chance of influencing them. plenty of the lottery picks you talk about were far more developed than favors when they were selected. there are just as many lottery picks who have taken years to get their game going and quite a few more that never got there at all.

  2. #17
    Senior Member LunaticWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salo View Post
    plenty of the lottery picks you talk about were far more developed than favors when they were selected. there are just as many lottery picks who have taken years to get their game going and quite a few more that never got there at all.
    People forget the odds of the draft.

    Only picks 1 and 2, (sometimes 3) have a decent rate of turning out Stars.
    3 4 5 aren't stars, but usually turn out starters.
    5-14, there are more busts then NBA players.
    14-20 are generally busts too. Worst range to pick
    20-60 have an okay chance of turning out a role player. High chance of bust.
    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

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  4. #18
    Senior Member orangello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salo View Post
    clearly you're pissed. i just have two things to reply:
    1) re: the deron trade, anytime you trade away a star and don't get one back, you lose the trade.
    2) to say favors is rotting is to ignore the development we've seen in his game this year (especially) and to give the man himself no credit whatsoever. he didn't come here expecting to be the starter. he came as a VERY raw but exciting project player who was always going to take time to develop. you and others here have your thoughts on how to best do that. the jazz coaches have their own and i don't reckon you've got much chance of influencing them. plenty of the lottery picks you talk about were far more developed than favors when they were selected. there are just as many lottery picks who have taken years to get their game going and quite a few more that never got there at all.
    You seem to be stuck on only the offensive side of the ball. You keep using the word "raw" to describe Favors. That word only applies to the offensive side of the ball.

    Defensively, he came onto this team as one of our best defensive players.

    If you don't agree with what people are saying that is fine, that is what this place is for. Just don't be ignorant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    So I was very mad about the game, but I wasn't going to vent here, because you guys all feel the same way. However, Ty's postgame interview got my blood boiling. On why he let Trey and Gordon play while having bad games, "You gotta let them battle through it because that's what you gotta do." Really are you kidding me. You have to balls to say that when you pulled Alec after 16 minutes against LAC and Kanter got 19 minutes toinght?

  5. #19
    Senior Member orangello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durrrr View Post
    Okay just looked at it.

    Favors has not started at center this year meaning when he did start it was with Al the ball hog who takes all the shots.

    Last year he started 5 games at center when Al was out. Production? He played 34 mpg. And posted :

    15.8 pts 11.2 Rebs 1.6 ast 0.6 blk 0.8 stls 51% fg. 76% ft.


    How many shots on average? 11

    Stop listening to David Locke.
    That last line is great! Also, the Jazz record for those games is also telling of the need for a move.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    So I was very mad about the game, but I wasn't going to vent here, because you guys all feel the same way. However, Ty's postgame interview got my blood boiling. On why he let Trey and Gordon play while having bad games, "You gotta let them battle through it because that's what you gotta do." Really are you kidding me. You have to balls to say that when you pulled Alec after 16 minutes against LAC and Kanter got 19 minutes toinght?

  6. #20
    Senior Member Purch's Avatar
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    To be fair using raw stats really doesn't tell the story. Tyson chandler is shooting 70% on the season, and on 10 shots he got 23 points against the Cavs. Does that mean that if he got the same defensive pressure a guy like Al or Z-Bo or guys expected to be the main scoring option, he'd be anywhere near that efficiency? No. Similarly you can't say that Favors would be able to put up that kind of efficency against the defensive pressure Jefferson faces. Just because he started does not mean that coaches threw the same amout of double teams, or they game planned that shutting him down was there focus (For the past year when the coaches are interviewed it's always the same, the keys are making it hard for Sap and Jefferson).

    Just because Spencer Hawes is filling in at center for Bynum does it mean he's seeing the same defensive pressure that Bynum will when he comes back? No if you're a main scoring option they defend you differently




    And yes Favors' is raw, even though it's improved dramatically this season, there's nothing about his offensive moves, that tells me he'd be more efficent against the defense Jefferson sees on a nightly basis. This is why I said when Favors-Kanter starts, Kanter should be the main scoring option. His offensive game is much more suited to take the defensive pressure Al usally sees and score even more efficently than AL.

    I want Al and Sap gone right now, to start building around Favors-Kanter. But you have to aknowlage that random raw stats without context can be used to make anyone, including Tyson Chandler look like they're dominating much more than bigs who see significant amounts of defensive pressure. The truth is those shots that are avileble to you, when you're not the main scoring option like Favors and Chandler.. aren't going to be available when teams are focused on shutting you down specifically. And that's when you need a defeined offensive game... In fact I'd say Favors is raw even considered to the younger Kanter at this point.

    Where he really shines is on the defensive end.
    Last edited by Purch; 12-18-2012 at 08:18 AM.

  7. #21
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durrrr View Post
    Favors has started about ten games in his career. How many times did he foul it of those.

    He is rotting. In his third year in the league is still right at his career mpg of 21. Does his role increase with good play? Nope. He gets the same minutes every night. Meanwhile other teams are playing their lottery picks and they are growing while the Jazz piss theirs off and let them rot.

    We traded our all star for essentially him. Wtf is this team doing. He is in his third year. 21 mpg is inexcusable and unacceptable.

    If I'm him i take the qualifying offer from the Jazz to play 1 year. Play careful or have a "nagging injury" keep me out a lot of the year and leave this team and sign with a team that won't waste me away behind mediocre vets.

    I'm pissed right now and have been this whole season tbh. In case nobody noticed.

    Awesome post.... I noticed this the other day as well, that his minutes have gone up by 1 from last year to this year.... retarded.

  8. #22
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolution 9 View Post
    It was crazy to see Burks getting time in the playoffs. Wow.

    The more we hold these young guns back the worse off we are. It's time to unleash the beasts, and enjoy the ups and downs that will come!
    This! sigh, im tired of waiting..... We have been waiting long enough.

  9. #23
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    People forget the odds of the draft.

    Only picks 1 and 2, (sometimes 3) have a decent rate of turning out Stars.
    3 4 5 aren't stars, but usually turn out starters.
    5-14, there are more busts then NBA players.
    14-20 are generally busts too. Worst range to pick
    20-60 have an okay chance of turning out a role player. High chance of bust.
    Link? tony parker, manu ginobli, paul millsap, mo williams, paul pierce, steph curry, david lee, dwayne wade, kobe bryant, chris paul, damien lillard...all these players go against what you posted and i came up with this list in only about 10 seconds off the top of my head.
    Im sure if i went through nba rosters i could find many more examples.
    You are just pulling **** out of your ass.

    The fact is that stars come from all different draft postitions and i could argue that there are plenty of busts at the 1 and 2 picks (greg oden, michael olowakandi, darko milicic)
    But you know what the one thing pretty much every allstar caliber player has in common is?... They all get lots of playing time very early in thier carreers.
    Look at the all stars in this league right now and tell me which ones sat on the bench for the first 3 years of thier carreer.

  10. #24
    Moderator Revolution 9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    This! sigh, im tired of waiting..... We have been waiting long enough.

    It's amazing how many of us want to the Jazz to turn the team over to the youth. I'd say even a slight majority want to see Burks get some PT,
    and Foye less. I think my solution of Foye playing the backup 1 to free up Burks minutes is the best way.

    Favors and Kanter need more minutes. Hayward is the only young gun I'm fine with his playing time right now.
    "Hayward can be a #1?"......"Maybe if he goes down to Fort Wayne...DLeague" -ESPN

  11. #25
    Senior Member LunaticWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Link? tony parker, manu ginobli, paul millsap, mo williams, paul pierce, steph curry, david lee, dwayne wade, kobe bryant, chris paul, damien lillard...all these players go against what you posted and i came up with this list in only about 10 seconds off the top of my head.
    Im sure if i went through nba rosters i could find many more examples.
    You are just pulling **** out of your ass.

    The fact is that stars come from all different draft postitions and i could argue that there are plenty of busts at the 1 and 2 picks (greg oden, michael olowakandi, darko milicic)
    But you know what the one thing pretty much every allstar caliber player has in common is?... They all get lots of playing time very early in thier carreers.
    Look at the all stars in this league right now and tell me which ones sat on the bench for the first 3 years of thier carreer.
    And I can come up with a list 10x the size you listed of players that busted. Its called ODDS for a reason. There are gems, but the chance that you land them is slim.
    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

  12. #26
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    This! sigh, im tired of waiting..... We have been waiting long enough.
    You poor thang.

    CoTy & KOC have a plan that's coming along nicely.

  13. #27
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    And I can come up with a list 10x the size you listed of players that busted. Its called ODDS for a reason. There are gems, but the chance that you land them is slim.

    exactly, thank you for proving my point.... point being that where a player is taken in the draft has no relevance to this discussion.

    You know what does have relevance to this discussion though?...... Almost every allstar in this league played major minutes in thier first 3 years.
    Coincedence? I think not.
    If the jazz had played favors major minutes since the d will trade then i would guess that favors would be averaging something like 16 pts 12 rebounds and 2.5 blocks per game which would make him well on his way to being an allstar.
    What do the jazz need right now more than anything? A star.

  14. #28
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    You poor thang.

    CoTy & KOC have a plan that's coming along nicely.
    I hope you are right.

  15. #29
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    I hope you are right.
    You realize KOC turned down Sam Presti's offer for James Harden, right? What do you think Presti asked for? Why did KOC decline if Favors and Kanter are not the future of the team?

    Bottom line is the Jazz are not looking to make a serious run with Jefferson and Millsap, and are trying to bring Favors and Kanter along at a comfortable level while attempting to get something back for their two expiring bigs. CoTy has to play winning ball & cannot destroy the market value of these two by benching them. Not only would that destroy the locker room and winning culture, but it would send a message to the market that these guys can be had easier than Raja Bell.

    It's a delicate situation that O'Connor and Corbin are handling beautifully. One way or another, next season will look much different.

  16. #30
    Senior Member LunaticWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    exactly, thank you for proving my point.... point being that where a player is taken in the draft has no relevance to this discussion.

    You know what does have relevance to this discussion though?...... Almost every allstar in this league played major minutes in thier first 3 years.
    Coincedence? I think not.
    If the jazz had played favors major minutes since the d will trade then i would guess that favors would be averaging something like 16 pts 12 rebounds and 2.5 blocks per game which would make him well on his way to being an allstar.
    What do the jazz need right now more than anything? A star.
    Well, we better get Beasley, Flynn, Jennings, Tyreke, Jianlian, Lopez. With all those minutes those guys played, they are stars!

    It doesn't work that way. Favors was one of the rawest offensive players to enter the NBA in the last 5 or so years.
    Enes Kanter didn't play a single game in college.
    Alec Burks was the scoring leader for a sub-par school, and came in with questionable range and defense.
    Gordon Hayward, good at everything, master of nothing.

    Are those things you said about LeBron, CP3, Durant, Blake, or any other star coming into the league?

    Stars don't have question marks.
    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

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