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  1. #46
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUMBERICA View Post
    Coming along nicely? Having completely stalled from one year ago is "coming along nicely"?
    Seriously, in what appreciable way are the Jazz better as a team or in a better position now than a year ago? And don't cite that contracts are further along now, because that doesn't reflect action or actual improvement.
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  2. #47
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    What is appreciable about letting Millsap and Jefferson expire when it costs you development (and maybe good will, and dollars and cents, and whatever longterm assets you could conceivably net, and...) of the players your organization is or SHOULD be serious about? That's the course the Jazz have married themselves to so far.
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  3. #48
    Senior Member Lattimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUMBERICA View Post
    What is appreciable about letting Millsap and Jefferson expire when it costs you development of the players your organization is or SHOULD be serious about? That's the course the Jazz have married themselves to so far.
    +1

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  5. #49
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    The bottom line is that if Jefferson doesn't have real market value (and I'm confident he doesn't), he doesn't have real market value. Holding onto him beyond reason (you could easily argue that line is as early as trade deadline 2011 and as late as 2012 offseason, you cannot easily argue beyond that) doesn't help your negotiating position down the line, it just makes you look foolish.
    Last edited by NUMBERICA; 12-18-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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  6. #50
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUMBERICA View Post
    The bottom line is that if Jefferson doesn't have real market value (and I'm confident he doesn't), he doesn't have real market value. Holding onto him beyond reason (you could easily argue that line is as early as trade deadline 2011 and as late as 2012 offseason, you cannot easily argue beyond that) doesn't help your negotiating position down the line, it just makes you look foolish.
    One last post:

    The Jazz got Jefferson for scraps: three poor-to-middling assets and financial savings. Does ANYONE think the Jazz could find a team that would give the Jazz a rookie-contract big, two crappy 1sts, and Jefferson off the books immediately or a BETTER offer? I've yet to see anyone - including Alpologists - indicate that he'd net that much. So if I'm accurate in saying that the Jazz couldn't even get that, preserving your negotiating position now and in the future is a very poor excuse as there is no upside. His value is good or it isn't. It's hard to low-ball an offer for a guy with medium to poor market-value.

    All bets are off if the Jazz extend/re-sign Jefferson, as will all fans of good basketball in Utah.
    Last edited by NUMBERICA; 12-18-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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  7. #51
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    Just kidding, this is the last post (until someone responds, anyway):

    25 games into this season, the Jazz have the exact same record as last year's team (13-12). For a team whose trajectory by all accounts is supposed to be going up, this is anything but "coming along nicely".
    Quote Originally Posted by Eenie-Meenie View Post
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  8. #52
    Senior Member NAOS's Avatar
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    but, but, but, we've had more road games! Just you wait and see!!! Jazz is good for families!!! Jefferson has wheezy!
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  9. #53
    Senior Member NAOS's Avatar
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    You can't execute a Long Con when everybody knows you're conning. That's more like bad local theatre. Is it over yet?
    ___#! Rudy Fan___
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  10. #54
    Senior Member Lattimer's Avatar
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    Oh and I think the Warriors are the latest to have put to bed the "winning culture" argument this year after their epic tank job last year. That was the most blatant tank job i've seen outside of what the Spurs did to get TD.

    That argument is folly.

    It's too bad we don't have a Jim Harbaugh coaching our team and instead we are stuck with this man for 20 years. Harbaugh would have benched Al long ago after realizing Favors might not be as far along in some ways, but he helps you win more and has the better upside (if not benching Al for Favs he'd have benched Paul).

  11. #55
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durrrr View Post
    Oh and I think the Warriors are the latest to have put to bed the "winning culture" argument this year after their epic tank job last year. That was the most blatant tank job i've seen outside of what the Spurs did to get TD.

    That argument is folly.

    It's too bad we don't have a Jim Harbaugh coaching our team and instead we are stuck with this man for 20 years. Harbaugh would have benched Al long ago after realizing Favors might not be as far along in some ways, but he helps you win more and has the better upside (if not benching Al for Favs he'd have benched Paul).
    Ya the "winning culture" arguement is dumb.... did miami have a winning culture before d wade? Did cleveland have a winning culture before lebron?

    You win with good players and coaches and smart front offices.
    Likewise if you have crappy players and coaches and a dumb front office then you will lose regardless of "culture"

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUMBERICA View Post
    Coming along nicely? Having completely stalled from one year ago is "coming along nicely"?
    Transitioning away from the most expensive player on the roster. It's not KOC's fault you're too impatient to let this happen in a realistic manner while he's trying to maximize return on assets.

    I also find it foolish to prematurely push precious years onto a growing body that is still developing and could easily have confidence crushed if he's getting dominated every single game. It is expedient on KOC & CoTy's part to not play Kanter, and Favors to a lesser extent, more minutes than they already are. This team is far away from contending for anything and there's no sane reason to break their bodies down just to appease a few malcontent fans.

    Going tank for talent is an entirely different strategy.

  13. #57
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    Transitioning away from the most expensive player on the roster. It's not KOC's fault you're too impatient to let this happen in a realistic manner while he's trying to maximize return on assets.

    I also find it foolish to prematurely push precious years onto a growing body that is still developing and could easily have confidence crushed if he's getting dominated every single game. It is expedient on KOC & CoTy's part to not play Kanter, and Favors to a lesser extent, more minutes than they already are. This team is far away from contending for anything and there's no sane reason to break their bodies down just to appease a few malcontent fans.

    Going tank for talent is an entirely different strategy.
    Yep we know you dont want to play the youth already.... just like i do want to play the youth.
    I guess we BOTH have 1 track minds eh frank?

  14. #58
    Senior Member orangello's Avatar
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    Numberica, it's so good to have you back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    So I was very mad about the game, but I wasn't going to vent here, because you guys all feel the same way. However, Ty's postgame interview got my blood boiling. On why he let Trey and Gordon play while having bad games, "You gotta let them battle through it because that's what you gotta do." Really are you kidding me. You have to balls to say that when you pulled Alec after 16 minutes against LAC and Kanter got 19 minutes toinght?

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUMBERICA View Post
    One last post:

    The Jazz got Jefferson for scraps: three poor-to-middling assets and financial savings. Does ANYONE think the Jazz could find a team that would give the Jazz a rookie-contract big, two crappy 1sts, and Jefferson off the books immediately or a BETTER offer? I've yet to see anyone - including Alpologists - indicate that he'd net that much. So if I'm accurate in saying that the Jazz couldn't even get that, preserving your negotiating position now and in the future is a very poor excuse as there is no upside. His value is good or it isn't. It's hard to low-ball an offer for a guy with medium to poor market-value.

    All bets are off if the Jazz extend/re-sign Jefferson, as will all fans of good basketball in Utah.
    Quote Originally Posted by NAOS View Post
    but, but, but, we've had more road games! Just you wait and see!!! Jazz is good for families!!! Jefferson has wheezy!
    Okay, reading this again, I don't see how what both of you say matches your negative sentiment toward everyone in the organization.
    .
    It's not that Al has zero value, it's that he doesn't have $15mm per value, which makes KOC's job extremely difficult. Jefferson on an $11mm per deal was a done trade last season. What do you expect O'Connor to do if he can't trade AJ and the league would penalize the Jazz if he outright made AJ sit on the bench? KOC took a flyer on a guy who potentially paired very well with that D-Will team, but instead got stuck with a bad contract that performs but not at the value needed. It's not like this is a Rashard Lewis situation where you can justify playing him as the 10th man on the bench.
    .
    Someone please tell me what KOC's other realistic options are.
    .
    I am Tanklin reporting from Tankville two years in a row.

  16. #60
    Moderator Revolution 9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    No. I'm in the stay patient, this will all work it self out by the trade deadline, quit bitching because its annoying group.
    You can also pen me in on the don't blow everything up because **** the team chemistry, burn bridges, and ruin our players trust in the coach petition.
    So you'd rather see Big Al and Sap play together than mixing in Favors, and Foye continue to get 30 mins a night.
    Let me guess you are all for it.
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