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  1. #16
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    I just cant imagine that in these meetings that hack talks about, that corbin is like i really want to play the young guys more... and koc/linsey/rigby/miller etc ect are saying NO corbin you must keep the youth on the bench and only give major minutes to vets.

    I just think that is a little far fetched.
    I do think that it is possible that corbin AND management both want to play the vets and if that is the case then they are all screwing this up.

    It seems to me that KOC would want to see his guys that he drafted and traded d-will for, get to play more.

  2. #17
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Thats a good point hack, and you are probably right..... however burks ridin pine ultimately comes down to corbin..... For example: if corbin started playing burks 28 minutes per game and he was playing amazing and the jazz went on a 15 game win streak, im pretty sure that jazz management would be ok with it.
    Im sure they all get together and talk about who plays and how much, but i bet in those meeting ty isnt saying "i think burks, favors, and kanter need more playing time", and jazz management is disagreeing.... I have a feeling that corbin is saying "if i keep playing the guys im playing then we will gel as a team and reach the playoffs" and management probably just says ok ty give it a try, you are the coach.
    Quote Originally Posted by jope View Post
    I agree with your post.

    However i think its just funny (in regards to the bolded) that his best interests in playing the vets for wins and playoff births has us in position for the 10th spot in the west. This, combined with the fact that our 4 centerpieces (the primary prizes for shipping away a guy who was going for 21 & 10 at the time) are getting a combined 60-ish minutes a night (with one racking up the DNP-CD's) is leading to so much ill-content.

    I don't care who's fault it is, at this point it doesn't matter. What i do care about is finding a way to become a better defensive team, and i believe that starts and ends with the coach. Until we strive for defensive greatness, we will always be < 7th seed.

    I want see what you guys want to see. I want more minutes for the youth. I just dont believe that management feels the same about that approach. I dont think that the blame is solely on Corbin. Blame has to go on him and management. This was an organized effort, and a shared vision by all parties involved. They all had input on this thing. From ownership, to Randy Rigby, to KOC, to Corbin, and to Corbin' s assistants. Corbin isnt on an island here making all the decisions.

    All I am saying is be consistent. You cant place all the blame on Corbin. You cant love the work of the GM and at the same time hate the product. They go hand in hand.

    It is what it is.. The Jazz are a small market team with a slim profit margin in a terrible economy. They have to make money. Its a business first. We dont have the same luxuries as a large market team, and an ownership with deep pockets. At least that is what we are lead to believe. If the Jazz decided to go with a youth movement, they would assuredly be a pretty bad team, at least that's what they believe. It would be fun for us kind of fans, but not for the casual fan.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    I just cant imagine that in these meetings that hack talks about, that corbin is like i really want to play the young guys more... and koc/linsey/rigby/miller etc ect are saying NO corbin you must keep the youth on the bench and only give major minutes to vets.

    I just think that is a little far fetched.
    I do think that it is possible that corbin AND management both want to play the vets and if that is the case then they are all screwing this up.

    It seems to me that KOC would want to see his guys that he drafted and traded d-will for, get to play more.

    You have to also understand that Corbin doesnt hold as much clout as an experienced coach with a proven track record. Right now he playing for his coaching career. He is essentially a yes man at this point. As long as Jefferson and Millsap are still on the team he is going to take that as an underlying message by management to play them. So of course he is going to do what he thinks management wants. His first stint as head coach could make or break his career. It would be awfully risky for him to bench Al or any of the other vets that management went out and got him to play. The management needs to do him a favor and makes some moves to make his decisions easier.

  4. #19
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    I think the FO lets Corbin do his job and are just hoping he will suddenly be one of the greatest managers of minutes allocation and player pride in the history of the league while they try to figure out just what the **** it is they're hoping to accomplish this year. Which is ****ing STUPID.
    Quote Originally Posted by every forum dreg
    I think he can play SF

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  6. #20
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    Was it management's idea to implement the big 3 lineup (which was the sole reason we made the playoffs last year) and then to completely abandon it the instant Josh Howard got back from injury? Was it also management's idea to not have the Jazz run any sort of, as Harpring put it, a "****ing offense"?

    Not saying Hack is wrong, but even with all those restrictions potentially on him Corbin's still had an excellent chance to prove his competence as a head coach and completely failed.

  7. #21
    Senior Member MoTappin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    I have never negged anyone before, and im still not gonna, but damn if my finger wasn't on the trigger.

    I love the young talent on this team that KOC has aquired. I blame ty for not playing them more. I think KOC got foye expecting him to be a back up player with spot minutes but corbin screwed that up.
    This.
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  8. #22
    Senior Member Mission Accomplished's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hack View Post
    So you all hate the coach and come up with different trade ideas everyday that never materialize, but you love the job the General manager has done with the team?

    Fantastic!! You are all ****ing retarded.

    I got news for you guys. KOC does have a say who plays. They have group meetings and talk about all this stuff. I have heard it from Randy Rigby himself in a few different interviews. I heard Gordon Monson specifically ask Randy Rigby about Derrick Favors playing time. He said himself, and I quote, "we talk about these sorta of things all the time, and we feel that the young guys need to earn their playing time"

    So regardless of how you feel or what you think, their is actual pressure on Corbin to go with the veteran group. Not just because of the sense that they have to earn their minutes, but because there is a lot of pressure on Corbin to win now, to make money, and protect the brand of making the playoffs consistently.

    Like Frank said, all your comments are pretty embarrassing. It shows your lack of understanding the relationship between Jazz management and Jazz coaching. It also shows just how short your memory and attention span is. This is nothing new to the Jazz way. We have never given the keys to a bunch of young guys and said its all yours now. Jazz would not make the playoffs. And that wouldnt sit well with management and ownership.

    Is Corbin making mistakes as a coach? Yes. But he isnt doing anything the management doesnt want him to do. You cant separate the two. Do you really think that management is looking at this and thinking the same things as you? That Corbin is a bad coach, and our veterans are terrible players? Why the hell would they just sit there and let it go on if they weren't on the same page as Corbin? You do know that Corbin doesnt hire and fire himself right? They could fire him anytime they want, and they could move one of these guys anytime they want to. Any team in the league would gladly take any one of our starters off our hands. They are all pretty good players on very nice and short contracts, with the exception of Marvin. He would probably be the hardest to move, and still he would probably be pretty easy to move.

    You all are just burying your heads in the sand, pretending that management doesnt have anything to do with the team that is presented to you. They everything to do with the team you see..
    This thanks for living in reality
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  9. #23
    Senior Member The Thriller's Avatar
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    Why can't it be both?

    I blame KOC for keeping the Jefferson/Millsap logjam. Is he emotionally tied to them? There just isn't any reason why both these guys should be on the roster! Otherwise, he has done a great job of bringing in talent. Marvin Williams? Mo Williams? The draft picks? Turning Angry Angry Duron into Favors, Kanter, and Burks? Awesome. He just... Really needed to get rid of Big Al... We still... Need to clear up this logjam at the 4/5.

    I blame Ty Corbin for a lot of things. The sad truth is, he has been given time to adjust, coach, and develop... He hasn't. From his strategies (our offense and defense look like dump) to his rotations (which make no sense). He has to go.

    While the Jazz FO needs to be blamed for their (lack) of dealing with the 4/5. Their hesitation in making a move is wasting valuable PT for the young players. Ty Corbin needs to be fired for just plain sucking.
    Lakers Suck.

  10. #24
    Senior Member MoTappin's Avatar
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    No it can't all be on Corbin. Pretty discouraging if it goes all the way to the top. But wouldn't there be some degree of management saying, "you're the coach, you handle rotations, etc."? I'm sure there is plenty of blame to go around, but I do remember them making a big deal of supporting the coach from the top down when Jerry left. They talked about coach being #1 in coach vs player situations, but made no secret about management always supporting the coach, period. Does that come into play here? I'd love to be a fly on the wall in those meetings.
    You know squat. You know less than squat. You and Squat could go to the movies and Squat could wear an "I'm with Stupid" t-shirt!

  11. #25
    Moderator Revolution 9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeavenHarris View Post
    why cant we blame KOC and TyCo? i blame both!

    true. there is blame to go around, but mostly on Ty.

    He has to wake up, and focus on the future. This win now thing is a joke, when we are winning nothing.
    Win now means and extra game or two in the playoffs if we even make them?

    We all want the young guns, and the future. **** the old guard.
    If Corbin can continue what happened in the Orlando then maybe there is slight hope for him.
    "Hayward can be a #1?"......"Maybe if he goes down to Fort Wayne...DLeague" -ESPN

  12. #26
    Senior Member infection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    I think KOC got foye expecting him to be a back up player with spot minutes but corbin screwed that up.
    After watching Corbin mindlessly give minutes to Bell, Howard, and to a lesser extent Miles, then I'd absolutely fault management in not being able to pick up on that.

  13. #27
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    I dont understand the Corbin hate at all. If Mo and Al and Sap are your best veterans then you are not going to be much above a 6-8 seed.

    And its also funny that some people argue here that KOC has given Corbin all that talent and Corbin does not use them well. You mean talent like Al and Sap? Because they are making a lot of money and no coach will bench them or play them only 20+ mins. If you think they arent that good then the blame should be on KOC, not Corbin, for still having them. You cannot argue both ways, make up your mind.

    And Burks isnt exactly the next Dwayne Wade. So lets stop pretending that we have some potential superstars rotting on the bench while the vets are stealing minutes.It is tough enough trying to develop 4 lotto picks at the same time. Jazz have not been in that position before with Sloan, atleast in the last 10-12 yrs when Corbin was an assitant. There is a learning curve there for Corbin trying to balance winning with development. Hayward and Favors are already seeing consistent mins and Kanter has seen more action this year. Burks will have to earn his.

  14. #28
    Senior Member infection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vj_74 View Post
    I dont understand the Corbin hate at all. If Mo and Al and Sap are your best veterans then you are not going to be much above a 6-8 seed.
    This is precisely everyone's argument, which is why people are disappointed that we're settling for it by not giving many minutes to the two guys we traded our franchise player for two years ago.

    And its also funny that some people argue here that KOC has given Corbin all that talent and Corbin does not use them well.
    I don't know who's making that argument. I know I'm not.

    the blame should be on KOC, not Corbin, for still having them. You cannot argue both ways, make up your mind.
    I can't speak for everyone, but I view it as a problem from top to bottom. This isn't Larry Miller's Utah Jazz.

    And Burks isnt exactly the next Dwayne Wade. So lets stop pretending that we have some potential superstars rotting on the bench while the vets are stealing minutes.
    I believe the Burks hype is inflated. Despite this, nobody is making any argument close to this. I'm actually in the "he's a bust" camp, but I'm also firmly in the "need to evaluate what we have" camp. This isn't the Stockton and Malone era where we need to be cautious on how we introduce players because we don't want to mess up what we have going on and can afford to make mistakes with young guys. This is rebuilding, despite whatever spin we put on it. Development aside, we need quicker evaluations of our young guys to determine what direction to take. If our team already had a direction, then evaluating these players would be an appropriate secondary concern. With the absence of any direction, there's no excuse for this not being the primary concern.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by infection View Post
    I believe the Burks hype is inflated. Despite this, nobody is making any argument close to this. I'm actually in the "he's a bust" camp, but I'm also firmly in the "need to evaluate what we have" camp. This isn't the Stockton and Malone era where we need to be cautious on how we introduce players because we don't want to mess up what we have going on and can afford to make mistakes with young guys. This is rebuilding, despite whatever spin we put on it. Development aside, we need quicker evaluations of our young guys to determine what direction to take. If our team already had a direction, then evaluating these players would be an appropriate secondary concern. With the absence of any direction, there's no excuse for this not being the primary concern.
    I didnt address you or anyone in particular in my earlier comments.
    As for "evaluating what we have" I believe Corbin is already doing that to a decent extent.Or atleast as much as the expectations the management has for him can allow him to do.
    He can play Burks 30+ mins, while pissing off a few veterans and losing 3-5 more games and risk not making the playoffs, provided Greg Miller has his back. If that is'nt the case, why should he play these guys even more, unless they are really outplaying the vets by a sizeable margin to earn more minutes? Corbin cant take that chance, he is'nt Sloan. And even Sloan was'nt backed enough by the management before his resignation.

    I would actually put the Jazz personell evaluation and scouting department on the dock here, if they had 4 chances at lotto picks and not even 1 out of 4 turns out to be an all-star leave alone a superstar. I give 1 more year for re-evaluation. Already it looks Hayward might not be it. He might be a decent role player at best.(hope Iam wrong) Jury is still out on Kanter, Favors and Burks.Big guys take some time to develop so Iam willing to wait.Burks can go either way. A lot of all stars or superstars tend to make a sizeable leap in their sophomore years. Havent seen that kind of a leap from anyone yet. Either these guys are late bloomers or they are close to busts(in the sense they are good players but not great) in which case blame cannot be on Corbin alone.

  16. #30
    Moderator Revolution 9's Avatar
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    Corbin is the guy playing Sap, and Big Al together which is the worst of his mistakes.
    Not finding room for Burks,after saying he deserved to play. That is him basically going on record saying he can't do his job.

    Not using enough defensive subs at critical times.

    I'm not saying that Corbin hasn't made some good moves, because he has. Overall though I think he's made too many mistakes.
    We can only hope that last night letting Burks play, and a few games ago where he stayed with Favors (and benched Sap) is the future.
    "Hayward can be a #1?"......"Maybe if he goes down to Fort Wayne...DLeague" -ESPN

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