OMG Doc>>>>>>>>>>>CoTy

[fishonjazz]

Ya but I bet you wish someone would be moved to make some playing time for Favors or Kanter.

Im just saying that it would have been nice to try and get something for Al and Paul while they had value. Instead of trying to field a flawed team and try to make a stupid run at the playoffs with a team that clearly isnt built right. Al and Paul clearly dont play well together for whatever reason. Everybody can see except management and Ty. We have enough bigs. We could have tried to cash in one of those assets for a pick or two, or get help somewhere else. And yes they had value last year. I bet anything we could have got something good for Al or Paul. Now we wont get crap for them and we are stuck watching this crap for the rest of the year. It just shows management's ineptness for understanding what it takes to build a team that can actually compete for a championship. They just arent aggressive enough for my taste.

I do wish someone would be moved... however i have no idea what trades are be proposed, so i dont know if KOC is doing the right thing or not.
To place blame on KOC involves me guessing on whether or not he is doing things right.
Placing blame on corbin involves me watching the games and seeing his mistakes all the time.

Koc may have gotten foye to be a spark for 15 minutes a game off the bench, or maybe he knew foye would be a starter and get 28 minutes a game... again i have no idea. All i can see is that corbin plays him too much.

It unreasonable to be mad at KOC for the way the games are coached, and that is the part that i get to witness so corbin gets my blame.

If i was witnessing KOC turning miami down when they offer lebron for jefferson, then i would be very pissed at KOC and there would be "fire koc" threads all over jazzfanz. But the fact is, we dont get to witness the trades being discussed.
I think we won the D-will trade, and the devin harris trade, and KOC has drafted pretty good. He screwed up on matthews, i liked him matching on millsap, and i was ok with letting cj and ak go.
So from what i have been able to SEE, he has done pretty good imo.

[WhiskyPriest]

The mark of a good coach is to model the offense around what he does have, not force players to become something they aren't. For all Sloan's greatness, that was his ultimate downfall, especially on defense. He pretended he always had an Eaton inside, and held onto the philosophy of funneling penetrators to the inside. Offensively, he wanted to run the P&R and kick out to a SG if the play was stopped. Problem was, in his last season he didn't have a great PF, nor did he have a SG who could hit shots. Not excusing Deron for his actions, but I think that was one of the reason Williams finally revolted; he knew Sloan's plays weren't working with the personnel the team had.

Corbin refuses to change the offense. He refuses to play the youngsters more, even though they're outplaying the "starters." Ty keeps insisting the ball be thrown into Jefferson, three times on a possession if needed. And it's so easy to defend. Every team in the league knows when to throw a double at Al...you let him fake to his left, overplay a bit to shut down the move to the middle, then send a big guy baseline because Al is going to turn right into it.

The ONLY time Corbin has adjusted is when Al was hurt. Then we saw great ball movement. We saw all 5 guys hitting shots. Marvin is a great shooter, but he never gets a chance in this offense. And bloody hell, does Ty ever coach these guys on shutting down the 3? Everyone is completely commited to playing inside the arc. Our 3-pt defense consists of running out at the opposition after the ball is already on it's way.

Although I agree with you completely when criticizing Sloan's defense, Sloan's offense did adapt to his personnel (just not as much as we would have liked). An example that springs to mind is that we never ran the pick and pop until we had Mehmet Okur. Plus, the flex offense worked great with cutters like Brewer and AK47. Our greatest mistake was giving Sloan a big man who needed the ball in the low post, but was horrible at running the pick and roll (Al). I do agree with you that Sloan's stubbornness was his downfall, however, I think he was more stubborn when it came to in-game-strategy and rotations and his blind devotion of never defending the three point line.

[WhiskyPriest]

I do wish someone would be moved... however i have no idea what trades are be proposed, so i dont know if KOC is doing the right thing or not.
To place blame on KOC involves me guessing on whether or not he is doing things right.
Placing blame on corbin involves me watching the games and seeing his mistakes all the time.

Koc may have gotten foye to be a spark for 15 minutes a game off the bench, or maybe he knew foye would be a starter and get 28 minutes a game... again i have no idea. All i can see is that corbin plays him too much.

It unreasonable to be mad at KOC for the way the games are coached, and that is the part that i get to witness so corbin gets my blame.

If i was witnessing KOC turning miami down when they offer lebron for jefferson, then i would be very pissed at KOC and there would be "fire koc" threads all over jazzfanz. But the fact is, we dont get to witness the trades being discussed.
I think we won the D-will trade, and the devin harris trade, and KOC has drafted pretty good. He screwed up on matthews, i liked him matching on millsap, and i was ok with letting cj and ak go.
So from what i have been able to SEE, he has done pretty good imo.

I absolutely agree with you (that it is easier to blame the coaching staff). However, we've had this problem long before Corbin. Corbin shares Sloan's mentality when it comes to rookies. If the rookie is drafted in the lottery = Bad, he needs to benched, especially for a vet. However, if we draft a scrappy rookie in the second round = good, give this rookie as much time as he needs to develop (e.g. Millsap and Matthews)

What we need to do is eliminate this mentality from our organization. We have had tons of POTENTIAL with our big four rookies, and we are squandering it away for mediocrity. Note: I am not claiming that our rookies will reach their potential. I am just stating that they have it.

Heck... we'll probably get rid of Millsap and Jefferson and then sign Elton Brand who would immediately become our starter. <---- This is how cynical I have become with the Jazz organization.

[Hack]

I do wish someone would be moved... however i have no idea what trades are be proposed, so i dont know if KOC is doing the right thing or not.
To place blame on KOC involves me guessing on whether or not he is doing things right.
Placing blame on corbin involves me watching the games and seeing his mistakes all the time.

Koc may have gotten foye to be a spark for 15 minutes a game off the bench, or maybe he knew foye would be a starter and get 28 minutes a game... again i have no idea. All i can see is that corbin plays him too much.

It unreasonable to be mad at KOC for the way the games are coached, and that is the part that i get to witness so corbin gets my blame.

If i was witnessing KOC turning miami down when they offer lebron for jefferson, then i would be very pissed at KOC and there would be "fire koc" threads all over jazzfanz. But the fact is, we dont get to witness the trades being discussed.
I think we won the D-will trade, and the devin harris trade, and KOC has drafted pretty good. He screwed up on matthews, i liked him matching on millsap, and i was ok with letting cj and ak go.
So from what i have been able to SEE, he has done pretty good imo.

Well we may not see whats going on, but do you not believe that Al and Paul had some value around the league? I do. What the hell is going on there? Why is this over load group of bigs still together?

You guys may think these guys dont have any value, but they do. Just look at how bad people hated Boozer, and Chicago couldnt wait to sign him up. Now they realized their mistake and want to dump him. Look at AK. Fans around here thought he wasn't worth squat, then minnesota gives him 10 mil a year. The value is/was there. Problem is KOC thinks Al is going to lead us to the promise land.

[fishonjazz]

Well we may not see whats going on, but do you not believe that Al and Paul had some value around the league? I do. What the hell is going on there? Why is this over load group of bigs still together?

You guys may think these guys dont have any value, but they do. Just look at how bad people hated Boozer, and Chicago couldnt wait to sign him up. Now they realized their mistake and want to dump him. Look at AK. Fans around here thought he wasn't worth squat, then minnesota gives him 10 mil a year. The value is/was there. Problem is KOC thinks Al is going to lead us to the promise land.

The other reason corbin gets way more criticism than koc is because koc only makes moves or drafts once in a while.... when he drafted hayward he was booed and criticized like crazy..... when he let mo williams go the first time he was criticized.... when he let matthews go he was criticized..... etc etc. Basically when he screws up we bash him, but there are less oppurtunities for us to bash him. I guess we could make threads everyday saying "trade millsap or jefferson" but we do talk about trades quite often.

With corbin we see his mistakes about 3 or 4 times per week so of course he will be criticized more, that is part of being a coach.... Im sure other teams forum talk trash about thier coaches just as much.

[MoTown16]

Well we may not see whats going on, but do you not believe that Al and Paul had some value around the league? I do. What the hell is going on there? Why is this over load group of bigs still together?

You guys may think these guys dont have any value, but they do. Just look at how bad people hated Boozer, and Chicago couldnt wait to sign him up. Now they realized their mistake and want to dump him. Look at AK. Fans around here thought he wasn't worth squat, then minnesota gives him 10 mil a year. The value is/was there. Problem is KOC thinks Al is going to lead us to the promise land.

I don't think that's the case with Big Al right now. It certainly wasn't with Boozer. We were all critical of KOC for failing to trade Carlos. But what was offered...taking on a bunch of aging, overpriced vets for 4-5 years? Did we want a guy like Rip Hamilton locked in at his salary? Or a couple of lesser guys adding up to Boozer's contract? I know Al didn't work out, but the reason we could get him is that KOC didn't go out and make a bad trade for Carlos.

Millsap and Jefferson certainly have value. And we've heard from enough sources that they're on the market. I just think right now teams are probably trying to offering longer-term junk in return. We're not going to get a star for either of those guys. But we shouldn't take back bad contracts, either. AS the deadline approcahes, I think a contender may step forward. And the offer will probably be a 1st-rounder, which would fall in the mid-to-late 20's and some throw-ins. Is that better than having their full salary come off the books? Perhaps not.

[fishonjazz]

I don't think that's the case with Big Al right now. It certainly wasn't with Boozer. We were all critical of KOC for failing to trade Carlos. But what was offered...taking on a bunch of aging, overpriced vets for 4-5 years? Did we want a guy like Rip Hamilton locked in at his salary? Or a couple of lesser guys adding up to Boozer's contract? I know Al didn't work out, but the reason we could get him is that KOC didn't go out and make a bad trade for Carlos.

Millsap and Jefferson certainly have value. And we've heard from enough sources that they're on the market. I just think right now teams are probably trying to offering longer-term junk in return. We're not going to get a star for either of those guys. But we shouldn't take back bad contracts, either. AS the deadline approcahes, I think a contender may step forward. And the offer will probably be a 1st-rounder, which would fall in the mid-to-late 20's and some throw-ins. Is that better than having their full salary come off the books? Perhaps not.

Im hoping that the clippers believe that they are one decent piece from being a true contender and decide that millsap or jefferson (more likely millsap) is a piece that could get them there. Hopefully they would offer bledsoe and a pick. Im not sold at all on bledsoe but he is young and athletic and an upgrade over watson and tinsley, plus we would get favors and kanter the minutes that they need/deserve/should be getting.

[MoTown16]

Im hoping that the clippers believe that they are one decent piece from being a true contender and decide that millsap or jefferson (more likely millsap) is a piece that could get them there. Hopefully they would offer bledsoe and a pick. Im not sold at all on bledsoe but he is young and athletic and an upgrade over watson and tinsley, plus we would get favors and kanter the minutes that they need/deserve/should be getting.

I'd say 16 in a row (soon to be 17) already has the Clippers believing they're a true contender without making any changes at all. The ONLY way the Jazz get value for Jefferson or Millsap is:

1) A contender has a big man get seriously injured.
2) A terrible team decides to jettison salry and only wants Millsap or Jefferson as an expiring contract. We'd have to be to willing to take on a veteran with 3-4 years remaining. And probably one who is having a disappointing year.

[fishonjazz]

I'd say 16 in a row (soon to be 17) already has the Clippers believing they're a true contender without making any changes at all. The ONLY way the Jazz get value for Jefferson or Millsap is:

1) A contender has a big man get seriously injured.
2) A terrible team decides to jettison salry and only wants Millsap or Jefferson as an expiring contract. We'd have to be to willing to take on a veteran with 3-4 years remaining. And probably one who is having a disappointing year.

Maybe they believe they are contenders already (i dont), but even if they do believe that, they still might want to get even better right?

[franklin]

I respect that you have a different opinion. But honestly, don't you wonder what the Carlisle's or Thib's could do with the same talent we have? Or look at Skiles. Do you honestly think Milwaukee has more talent up and down their roster than we do? I don't even think Golden State has more talent than us.

I like Ty. But I don't think he's a pro coach and certainly not the guy to lead the next generation once Favors/Kanter replace Al/Sap.

Of course I wonder. I don't think Corbins perfect by any measure, just don't know if we'll ever have a situation to judge him fairly from. I'm not going to throw the guy under the bus without having something to go on.
.
To me, all the evidence points to a coach who was dealt a bad hand and has to manage between development, win now, & sustain whatever value the players of today have for K O'Lindsey.
.
Corbin has answered every single criticism this board has put forth yet gets no credit? "Popps runs excellent offensive sets". Yeah, well Corbin is running identical plays (unless you ask hater JJAS). "Corbin won't play young guys". Corbin moves toward Burks when Foye loses his shot. Corbin tries to give Favors offensive leash. Corbin tries to develop Haywad's frustrating offense. Corbin tries to get Kanter post touches he doesn't deserve. "Corbin needs to move away from Jeffy ball". Yeah, he did it and the players couldn't succeed. He's still doing it. "Corbin needs ingamestrategy for each game". Corbin has telegraphed specific changes in games like against NOH. Response was "why didn't he play Favors [against Ryan Anderson]". He just ****ing told us why not!
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Bottom line is Corbin could win more games with this team if that were the only goal. Instead, he's transitioning away from the vets in a sneaky little way where they don't realize it as much, the youngins get theirs, & the FO has highest possible value to go shopping with.
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One last thing that I've asked you before: I don't get how you don't see offensive improvement in the Jazz. Yeah, they've regressed a ton. But around game 20 or so they were obviously implementing more sets and growing.

[NAOS]

Can you name one time when a coach could be fairly evaluated?

[fishonjazz]

Of course I wonder. I don't think Corbins perfect by any measure, just don't know if we'll ever have a situation to judge him fairly from. I'm not going to throw the guy under the bus without having something to go on.
.
To me, all the evidence points to a coach who was dealt a bad hand and has to manage between development, win now, & sustain whatever value the players of today have for K O'Lindsey.
.
Corbin has answered every single criticism this board has put forth yet gets no credit? "Popps runs excellent offensive sets". Yeah, well Corbin is running identical plays (unless you ask hater JJAS). "Corbin won't play young guys". Corbin moves toward Burks when Foye loses his shot. Corbin tries to give Favors offensive leash. Corbin tries to develop Haywad's frustrating offense. Corbin tries to get Kanter post touches he doesn't deserve. "Corbin needs to move away from Jeffy ball". Yeah, he did it and the players couldn't succeed. He's still doing it. "Corbin needs ingamestrategy for each game". Corbin has telegraphed specific changes in games like against NOH. Response was "why didn't he play Favors [against Ryan Anderson]". He just ****ing told us why not!
.
Bottom line is Corbin could win more games with this team if that were the only goal. Instead, he's transitioning away from the vets in a sneaky little way where they don't realize it as much, the youngins get theirs, & the FO has highest possible value to go shopping with.
.


.
One last thing that I've asked you before: I don't get how you don't see offensive improvement in the Jazz. Yeah, they've regressed a ton. But around game 20 or so they were obviously implementing more sets and growing.

Just a couple of things that you got wrong: Corbin didn't move toward burks when foye lost his shot.... he moved toward burks when an injury happened (mo williams) just like last year (raja bell, josh howard injuries). His hand was forced somewhat.

You say "corbin moved away from jeffy ball and the players couldn't succeed". Cant remember if our record is 6-1 or 7-1 without jeffy.... I think that is pretty successful, so apparently the players COULD succeed without jeffy ball.

I agree with you about him being dealt a tough hand to manage between development, win now, & sustain whatever value the players of today have for K O'Lindsey. However, he gets paid the big bucks to manage that and things like subbing in favors for defense at the end of games and getting burks into the rotation from the beginning are things that he should be doing regardless of the tough hand he was dealt.

[NAOS]

Keep going, Fishy. There was more wrong about that post. I've lost the drive.

[//r00t 4 Jazz]

So how many minutes is Burks playing of Mo's would be minutes?

Burks playing time is coming from Carroll's minutes and a little of Foye's maybe, the only way the injury could be taken into account is because Mo's absence takes a scorer away and Watson/Tinsley have scored a whopping 3pts since Mo went down and have more TO's then assists. Since Corbin doesn't make these type's of adjustments it can't be that as well as Burks so far has played majority with the bench players and not starters so his scoring wouldn't be able to pick up the slack of not having Mo all that much.

For the rest I think they still go to Al too much and the success or lack there of when they don't could be many different reasons.

[Sneakers]

How can anyone justify how little Corbin has done to fix the starting lineup, a lineup which had lead to a first quarter deficit in 11 of the last 12 games. The slow starting is so obvious, he either is completely blind or totally obtuse when it comes to it.

Or how about the mechanical out-subbing of the young players who have brought us back for the very same vets that created the hole in the first place. It has gone on too long for "learning" to be an excuse. The "dealt a bad hand excuse" could fly in his first half season and the lockout season, but what bad hand has he been given this season? Too many good ish players to balance?