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  1. #31
    Senior Member Jazz4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNBAnerd View Post
    hack, i'm just curious... you say you have insider information on trades that the jazz have been offered, but you also say you hate KOC and think he's a moron. i'm just wondering how it works that you're so plugged in to what is coming across KOC's desk, and yet you think he's a moron. earnest question here.
    Surely you don't believe this.

  2. #32
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hack View Post
    How about saying something about the moronic job the management of this team has done. Of course this situation was going create bad feeling for somebody. It was obvious from the start this 4 big log jam was a bad idea. I blame Millsap none for his frustration. I put it all on the shoulders of the moron Kevin O stupid **** Conner.

    Just wait til we find out Favors and Kanter are sick of it too. But this board will still think KOC is genius.
    Ya KOC sucks because he got us alot of good bigs... Son of a bitch.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    FWIW, Al has been the least efficient Jazz big in postups this season.
    Not in the last 3 minutes of games

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  5. #34
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Ya KOC sucks because he got us alot of good bigs... Son of a bitch.
    Ok smart ass. No more bitching about playing time for Favors and Kanter, or big Al's play, or Millsap's, or Corbin. Basically dont bitch about the team at all.

    Signed,

    Reality that doesn't contradict one's self.

  6. #35
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    Al's reliability does not exactly correlate to efficiency. Put another way, it's a lot to presume that Sap, Favors, and Kanter would maintain their current levels of efficiency if they got the same touches Al did. So Al being a more reliable post scorer is accurate if you buy that premise.
    I'm still waiting for a convincing argument why Al should get so many touches in the post, given his effectiveness in postups this season. I'm not convinced there's much of a correlation between number of postups and wins.
    http://jazzfanz.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=133&dateline=1317382587

  7. #36
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartsock View Post
    Not in the last 3 minutes of games
    link?
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  8. #37
    Senior Member gregbroncs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNBAnerd View Post
    i'm with you in this thread in overall terms, but i'm not sure i can endorse "he's playing poorly." in the last 5 games, he has 54 points on 47 shots (1.15 pps) and has played far better defense than al and even better than derrick has been in certain long stretches where he got exposed, particularly in the home-and-home with the clippers. he also grabbed a rebound every 4 minutes in december and had an assist for every 3.8 shot attempts with an assist-to-TO ratio of 2.9.

    (for comparison's sake, al's PPS over those 5 games was actually about the same because of his 30-points-on-22-shots explosion in LA. his rebounding was a hair better, but he only had an assist for every 7.4 attempts with a 2.1 A/TO ratio. so if you're corbin how do you explain to paul why al is better except in terms of sheer volume of shots? how do you explain to paul how al is more important to the team when you've played every bit as good as him on one end of the floor, and a hell of a lot better at the other end?)
    On which end of the floor is Millsap a hell of a lot better than AL? Because it is definitely not on the defensive end.
    Welcome aboard Snyder, Exum and Hood. Here is to hoping this season is more entertaining than the last 3.

  9. #38
    Moderator Revolution 9's Avatar
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    He should just admit his play has sucked. He isn't being kept out for any other reason.

    Man up Mansap
    "Hayward can be a #1?"......"Maybe if he goes down to Fort Wayne...DLeague" -ESPN

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    I'm still waiting for a convincing argument why Al should get so many touches in the post, given his effectiveness in postups this season. I'm not convinced there's much of a correlation between number of postups and wins.
    That's not my point and I'm sure you know that. We can debate how many touches Al should get in the "Al gets too many touches thread" if you want to start it. And postups vs. wins is yet another thread.

    The question is who the most "reliable" post player is. That's Al. Sap, Favors, or Kanter cannot create their own shots down low at this point. If we force fed any of them 12 post touches a night, their efficiency numbers would be worse than Al's.

  11. #40
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    That's not my point and I'm sure you know that. We can debate how many touches Al should get in the "Al gets too many touches thread" if you want to start it. And postups vs. wins is yet another thread.

    The question is who the most "reliable" post player is. That's Al. Sap, Favors, or Kanter cannot create their own shots down low at this point. If we force fed any of them 12 post touches a night, their efficiency numbers would be worse than Al's.
    Then my reply to numbnut's (not you) post should have been "so what?". I can agree with that.

    GB: Not that any of your posts have ever made any sense whatsoever, but by what metric is Jefferson a better defender than Millsap? Per mysynergysports.com, Jefferson's opposite number scores at a 0.92 points per possession clip. For Millsap, that number stands at 0.83. Keep in mind, Millsap is guarding 4s, who tend to be better offensively than 5s. Aside from that, Millsap is also superior to Al in On-Court/Off-court team defense. Maybe it's just a coincidence that Millsap has consistently put up better defensive advanced stats throughout his career (and this season).

    Rev: When is Ty going to try crunch time lineups with Al on the bench? Should he have averaged 5 more minutes per game than Millsap over the last 9 games? His numbers have been worse, his team play worse, the results terrible. Time for some Favors/Sap, Kanter/Sap or Kanter/Favors lineups to finish games, especially when Al is playing soft.
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  12. #41
    Senior Member mellow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    Time for some Favors/Sap, Kanter/Sap or Kanter/Favors lineups to finish games, especially when Al is playing soft.
    I think Ty is afraid there will be no scoring if he takes Al out durring crunch time, and he may be right. But a solution to that problem may be just a few steps away.

    If the ball doesn't move, you will be on the bench! -DOL

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    Then my reply to numbnut's (not you) post should have been "so what?". I can agree with that.

    GB: Not that any of your posts have ever made any sense whatsoever, but by what metric is Jefferson a better defender than Millsap? Per mysynergysports.com, Jefferson's opposite number scores at a 0.92 points per possession clip. For Millsap, that number stands at 0.83. Keep in mind, Millsap is guarding 4s, who tend to be better offensively than 5s. Aside from that, Millsap is also superior to Al in On-Court/Off-court team defense. Maybe it's just a coincidence that Millsap has consistently put up better defensive advanced stats throughout his career (and this season).

    Rev: When is Ty going to try crunch time lineups with Al on the bench? Should he have averaged 5 more minutes per game than Millsap over the last 9 games? His numbers have been worse, his team play worse, the results terrible. Time for some Favors/Sap, Kanter/Sap or Kanter/Favors lineups to finish games, especially when Al is playing soft.
    Then I guess we agree. Probably we're just splitting on the word "reliable".

    My thing is simple: I'll bet Ty Chandler has fantastic post stats. But if you actually posted him 12 times a night, he would be horrific.

    Being able to create your own shot in the NBA is very underappreciated skill. Few players can really do it whatever their efficiency rates, and even less can do it in the post. Al can do that. The other guys we have can't.

    How to use that ability would be my question. At present, I don't think we have a coach who knows how which is the theme of all my broken record posts.

  14. #43
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyshelby View Post
    Being able to create your own shot in the NBA is very underappreciated skill. Few players can really do it whatever their efficiency rates, and even less can do it in the post. Al can do that. The other guys we have can't.
    Not sure the bolded is true. In today's NBA, getting your own shot seems to be the only appreciated skill. And, it's not as if the other 3 Jazz bigs don't get a big chunk of their possessions in the post. I think you overstate/overvalue what Al gives the Jazz, relative to the other available options, on offense. Tough to bridge this gap without a lot better data though.
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  15. #44
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    FWIW, billy, I plugged a bunch of mysynergysports team stats into a spreadsheet a couple weeks ago.

    As one would expect, the lowest PPP offense comes out of isos, postups and Pick and Roll ball handlers. This isn't (necessarily) because these are ineffective, it's because they can do a couple key things other offense can't (or generally don't):

    1. Create easy shots for teammates.
    2. Get shots consistently when the offense breaks down.

    Not surprisingly, then, the most common shot type is the spot-up jumpshot, which is created (by in large) by the 3 aforementioned shot types.

    The Jazz, in PPP, are currently 29th in P&R Ball handler, 14th in ISOs and 9th in postups. With the disorganized/poorly executed/non-existent offense the Jazz are running, they should be running a lot of the offense through the post IF all else is equal re: Creating offense for others.

    Al gives the Jazz consistent offense when nothing else is available. He does so better than any other player on the team (although Kanter is sneaking up on him). Whether this offsets his mediocre vision/passing and piss-poor defense and transition play is hard to say. Given this uncertainty (at least IMO), I'd like to see Ty try using crunch time lineups not featuring Al, as he's done with Millsap.
    http://jazzfanz.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=133&dateline=1317382587

  16. #45
    Senior Member Thee jazz fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    I think Ty is afraid there will be no scoring if he takes Al out durring crunch time, and he may be right. But a solution to that problem may be just a few steps away.

    He isn't the answer as of now. Maybe if his game matures, but now his offense isn't much more efficient then Al's. Yes, he gets to the foul line at a greater rate but his shooting is just plain bad.

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