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  1. #61
    Senior Member Jazz4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    If Al is a worse man defender though, the only way to make up for it is by being a better help and/or transition defender. Do you think Al is a better help/transition defender than Millsap?
    GVC:
    I consider them about equal man defenders, maybe a slight edge to Al. His size and instincts on centers are pretty good. For instance Deandre Jordan tried several post moves on Al a few nights ago and think it was either a turnover or a strip every time. I can't remember any centers ever "going off" on Al. Millsap is a significantly better help defender and in transition.

    To Nerd:
    I never said Al didn't "suck" on defense, don't twist what I said. Just your metric will be wrong as often as it is right. I gave you a clear example of how it could be wrong on nearly every play in the Jazz system and could give many more if you need further convincing.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz4ever View Post
    GVC:
    I consider them about equal man defenders, maybe a slight edge to Al. His size and instincts on centers are pretty good. For instance Deandre Jordan tried several post moves on Al a few nights ago and think it was either a turnover or a strip every time. I can't remember any centers ever "going off" on Al. Millsap is a significantly better help defender and in transition.
    To Nerd:
    I never said Al didn't "suck" on defense, don't twist what I said. Just your metric will be wrong as often as it is right. I gave you a clear example of how it could be wrong on nearly every play in the Jazz system and could give many more if you need further convincing.
    if i was trying to compare al to joakim noah or someone on another team, that would make total sense. but i'm comparing him to 3 guys who have the same role in the same system. if it's the system's fault that al doesn't get back to close out on a spot-up shooter, then why don't paul, derrick and enes have similarly sucky numbers? if it's the system's fault that al can't guard an iso worth a damn, why doesn't the system similarly drag those guys' synergy numbers down?

    paul, enes and derrick play in the same defensive schemes al plays in, yet they manage 9-13 points better per 100 defensive possessions. how does that one jive with your "synergy doesn't understand team defensive systems so the numbers aren't valid" argument?

    (also, if synergy didn't provide a lot of quantitatively valuable data, it wouldn't be widely used by teams and scouts... you just have to know how and when to supplement the quantitative with the qualitative... as with any stat.)
    check out the jazzbros.com blog for more on the jazz.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Jazz4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNBAnerd View Post
    if i was trying to compare al to joakim noah or someone on another team, that would make total sense. but i'm comparing him to 3 guys who have the same role in the same system. if it's the system's fault that al doesn't get back to close out on a spot-up shooter, then why don't paul, derrick and enes have similarly sucky numbers? if it's the system's fault that al can't guard an iso worth a damn, why doesn't the system similarly drag those guys' synergy numbers down?

    paul, enes and derrick play in the same defensive schemes al plays in, yet they manage 9-13 points better per 100 defensive possessions. how does that one jive with your "synergy doesn't understand team defensive systems so the numbers aren't valid" argument?

    (also, if synergy didn't provide a lot of quantitatively valuable data, it wouldn't be widely used by teams and scouts... you just have to know how and when to supplement the quantitative with the qualitative... as with any stat.)
    Limiting it to one team certainly helps its reliability. I remember it had Al rated quite high in areas last year though, particularly in isos. Again not to say he is a good defender, just that it is more random than right, because Al is the same player he was last year.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNBAnerd View Post
    paul, enes and derrick play in the same defensive schemes al plays in, yet they manage 9-13 points better per 100 defensive possessions.
    They don't defend the same people. Jefferson defends the opponents best post man, in the games I have seen.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    They don't defend the same people. Jefferson defends the opponents best post man, in the games I have seen.
    So whats your point?
    Sometimes jefferson guards the best big for the other team, sometimes its millsap.
    Against a team like G.S. jefferson guard festus ezili, and millsap guards david lee. L.A clips jefferson guards jordan and millsap griffin.
    Over a large span of games it should even out somewhat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
    They don't defend the same people. Jefferson defends the opponents best post man, in the games I have seen.
    Seems like they put Paul on the worst player for the most part, Marvin takes the best best wing and Al takes the bes big. So Synergy isn't completely reflective of what is happening. Al is terrible in P & R though, but I believe that is more because of his physical limitations. Paul gets killed in the post fairly often. So they both suck at some things and are ok at others.

  7. #67
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartsock View Post
    Seems like they put Paul on the worst player for the most part, Marvin takes the best best wing and Al takes the bes big. So Synergy isn't completely reflective of what is happening. Al is terrible in P & R though, but I believe that is more because of his physical limitations. Paul gets killed in the post fairly often. So they both suck at some things and are ok at others.

    They dont put paul on the worst player.... they put him on the other teams power forward and jefferson on the center.
    Millsap has to guard kevin love, ibaka, griffin, lee, aldrige, thompson, dirk, paul gasol, zach randolph etc etc etc.
    It has nothing to do with who is the "better big" on the opposing team.... Millsap almost always guards the 4 and jeffy guards the 5

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    They dont put paul on the worst player.... they put him on the other teams power forward and jefferson on the center.
    Millsap has to guard kevin love, ibaka, griffin, lee, aldrige, thompson, dirk, paul gasol, zach randolph etc etc etc.
    It has nothing to do with who is the "better big" on the opposing team.... Millsap almost always guards the 4 and jeffy guards the 5
    If the player Millsap is on is of any worth they put in Favors for extended minutes. Just saying.

  9. #69
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartsock View Post
    If the player Millsap is on is of any worth they put in Favors for extended minutes. Just saying.
    Favors has averaged 20 minutes per game for the last 2 years.

    Besides favors was not a part of the arguement.... we were discussing millsaps defense vs jeffersons defense. You said matchups for paul and AL are determined by the other teams "worst" player.... i was simply saying that is not the case. Corbin would never be creative enough to determine defensive assignments by matchups.... He just goes with postition guarding the same position on the other team for the most part. (with the exceptions being hayward on cp3, or carroll on a smaller player at times)

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Favors has averaged 20 minutes per game for the last 2 years.

    Besides favors was not a part of the arguement.... we were discussing millsaps defense vs jeffersons defense. You said matchups for paul and AL are determined by the other teams "worst" player.... i was simply saying that is not the case. Corbin would never be creative enough to determine defensive assignments by matchups.... He just goes with postition guarding the same position on the other team for the most part. (with the exceptions being hayward on cp3, or carroll on a smaller player at times)
    He only guards position on position, except when he doesnt.

  11. #71
    Senior Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartsock View Post
    He only guards position on position, except when he doesnt.
    I said "for the most part".

    Anyway, its ok if you just admit that you were wrong (if you are even able to do that) about your statement that millsap guards the other teams worst player.

    Griffin, aldridge, randolph, lee, ibaka, dirk, david west, josh smith, kevin love, pau gasol...... these are not what i would call the "worst" players on thier teams.

  12. #72
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    Anyway, its ok if you just admit that you were wrong (if you are even able to do that) about your statement that millsap guards the other teams worst player.

    Griffin, aldridge, randolph, lee, ibaka, dirk, david west, josh smith, kevin love, pau gasol...... these are not what i would call the "worst" players on thier teams.
    Hartsock's on a mission to prove once and for all that he's an ignorant ****. Good for him, I say.

    The only time this season Millsap's defended the opposing 5 (IIRC) was against Toronto, when Al was out. Otherwise, he guards opposing 4s, who tend to be better offensive players than 5s (like others in this thread, I will not actually try to support this statement).
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  14. #73
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    LOL @ Jefferson defenders. It is pure comedy reading your responses. Thank you KOC's mom and Corbin's mom. Pure gold.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
    So whats your point?
    Sometimes jefferson guards the best big for the other team, sometimes its millsap.
    Against a team like G.S. jefferson guard festus ezili, and millsap guards david lee. L.A clips jefferson guards jordan and millsap griffin.
    Over a large span of games it should even out somewhat.
    I admit to not having seen either play a large number of minutes, but my recollections of Lee and Griffin is that you will find them further from the basket than Ezili and Jordan. When I said best post player, I meant the player which the team uses in the low post. If we usually saw Griffin on a low block and Jordan at the top of the key, I believe you'd see Jefferson guarding Griffin.
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  16. #75
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    I like Al but it's silly to say Sap is worse defensively. Paul and Marvin are the only guys with size who can get out in space and defend.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

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