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Thread: Denouncing God

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    Points per shot is a terrible metric; there are far better stats out there (TS%, PPP from mysynergy). Nerd knows this, but uses this stat when it supports his arguments. A complete lack of intellectual integrity.
    How is PPP a good indicator for an individual's offensive play? A team sure, but a player? Also, I'd like an explanation on why TS% (Hayward's has gone down every year in the league as has his eFG%) is a better indicator as well.

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    Senior Member mellow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cctrackstar View Post
    Touche... Wondered about that, but didn't want to look it up. Oh well, he's a swingmen, he doesn't have to rebound on a regular basis.
    Deron Williams is that you?

    Jazz are 25th defensivley in large part because their defensive rebounding rate is ranked 24th. The swings have got to help once in a while.
    X LIKE XENOPUS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrone Torbin View Post
    Hayward doesn't rebound....
    he rebounds very adequately when he isn't TOLD to release for the break. The ability is there; nobody who watches him would question that.

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    Hayward's Holy Grail is 3-pnt shooting consistency. If he ever finds it, then he very well could be an all-star.

    This is very speculative (if I had league pass I'd go back and review), but I think the problem with Hayward's shot can be summed up thusly:

    1. the purposefulness of how he sets his feet. If he gets too "tender" here, the shot is off.
    2. the over-thinking that goes into the position of his elbow... instead of just trusting and pulling the damn string.

    When these two things are fluid and fast, then he is absolutely solid. When the slightest hesitation creeps into either, then he can be a mess.

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    Senior Member Cyrone Torbin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAOS View Post
    Hayward's Holy Grail is 3-pnt shooting consistency. If he ever finds it, then he very well could be an all-star.

    This is very speculative (if I had league pass I'd go back and review), but I think the problem with Hayward's shot can be summed up thusly:

    1. the purposefulness of how he sets his feet. If he gets too "tender" here, the shot is off.
    2. the over-thinking that goes into the position of his elbow... instead of just trusting and pulling the damn string.

    When these two things are fluid and fast, then he is absolutely solid. When the slightest hesitation creeps into either, then he can be a mess.
    I would say finding balance would be his ticket to being an All-Star. He doesn't have it when driving to the rim, and he doesn't have it when shooting anything that isn't a set shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    Points per shot is a terrible metric; there are far better stats out there (TS%, PPP from mysynergy). Nerd knows this, but uses this stat when it supports his arguments. A complete lack of intellectual integrity.
    i was responding to a comment about how gordon's stats move from one game to the next, so i was looking at game logs. i could have easily posted PPP and it would have told the same impressive story for the last 16 games of hayward's year. i could have used any number of stats that all told a similar story, so i chose the one that was most accessible. calm down, that's not intellectual irresponsibility or whatever. my point is still true no matter which metric i use to make it.

    fwiw, gh's total ppp for that 16-game stretch is 1.08... 5 pts per 100 better than the team as a whole. he has been our most consistently efficient offensive threat, and yet his role has been cut back so we can watch foye continue to not guard anybody.
    check out the jazzbros.com blog for more on the jazz.

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    Crazy boys!
    Haywards are best player I bet you ne thing he's Allstar by year five. He got better at everything every year what more do you want? Topless pics like raja I bet is all.

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  9. #23
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    He's good, he's young, and the Jazz need perimeter players desperately. I think the issue is that nobody is sure trading Hayward gets you a player better than Hayward. Pretty simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by every forum dreg
    I think he can play SF

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    Senior Member The Fresh Prince's Avatar
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    Is it because the Haywerd is untouchable?

    "Gordon Haystack gets no love."

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    well not to get all racialist but certain players have more value in certain markets that go beyond on-court stuff. for example jeremy lin and yao have higher value in a big asian market like houston just because of the merchandise/tix sales from fans that like to root for asians. i could see the jazz seeing this angle and keeping it in consideration when doing trades. probably not very high on their list of priorities, but maybe in the back of their minds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyp Rosetti View Post
    How is PPP a good indicator for an individual's offensive play? A team sure, but a player? Also, I'd like an explanation on why TS% (Hayward's has gone down every year in the league as has his eFG%) is a better indicator as well.
    GVC, if you could please answer this, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

  13. #27
    Senior Member Thee jazz fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akirac73 View Post
    In the 1,987,423 trade proposals that pop up on this site, why is it that rarely, if ever, Mr. Hayward is mentioned? Do Jazz fans feel he is a cornerstone/untouchable player on the team? I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't think Hayward will ever be elite/All-Star player some Jazz fans think he will become. He's the most overrated player on the Jazz IMO. The guy is equally as inconsistent as previous Jazz-Player Whipping Boys, AK47 and CJ Miles, yet he seems to get a pass. I'm tired of hearing Bolerjack or Harpring say "Hayward had a good game tonight, maybe this is a breakout game for him" then we proceed to watch him stink it up for the next game.

    I hope the Jazz don't shut the door on any trade offers that include Hayward if it could bring us back a legit PG and/or picks.

    That is all.
    By your logic we should also trade Favors. I'll say this is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read. Congrats...

  14. #28
    Senior Member mct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyp Rosetti View Post
    GVC, if you could please answer this, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
    I'll try. PPS makes free throws way more important than they actually are. Someone who makes a field goal is just as efficient as someone who gets fouled and makes both free throws, but, when using PPS, it looks like they earned those points without even taking a shot. It's still impressive when Hayward gets 19 points on 6 shots, but he's not magic. The other team still gets the ball back when he's done shooting free throws.

    TS% counts 44% (or something) of every FTA as a FGA, which makes it a better indicator of a player's shooting efficiency. However, even it is not a perfect measure of offensive efficiency because it doesn't count TOs as wasted possessions.

    PPP adds TOs in with the FGAs and .44FTAs. If I remember right, it even subtracts a player's offensive rebounds. This does give an advantage to bigs. I would like it way better if instead they somehow went through the play-by-plays and subtracted FGAs that resulted in an offensive rebound instead, but that's impossible to do just from box score data. Maybe synergy does this with their PPP. I'm not sure.

  15. #29
    Senior Member cctrackstar's Avatar
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    well not to get all racialist but certain players have more value in certain markets that go beyond on-court stuff. for example jeremy lin and yao have higher value in a big asian market like houston just because of the merchandise/tix sales from fans that like to root for asians. i could see the jazz seeing this angle and keeping it in consideration when doing trades. probably not very high on their list of priorities, but maybe in the back of their minds.
    Let me adjust your post a little by saying that perhaps his trade value to other teams is diminished because of his -well- race.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mct View Post
    I'll try. PPS makes free throws way more important than they actually are. Someone who makes a field goal is just as efficient as someone who gets fouled and makes both free throws, but, when using PPS, it looks like they earned those points without even taking a shot. It's still impressive when Hayward gets 19 points on 6 shots, but he's not magic. The other team still gets the ball back when he's done shooting free throws.

    TS% counts 44% (or something) of every FTA as a FGA, which makes it a better indicator of a player's shooting efficiency. However, even it is not a perfect measure of offensive efficiency because it doesn't count TOs as wasted possessions.

    PPP adds TOs in with the FGAs and .44FTAs. If I remember right, it even subtracts a player's offensive rebounds. This does give an advantage to bigs. I would like it way better if instead they somehow went through the play-by-plays and subtracted FGAs that resulted in an offensive rebound instead, but that's impossible to do just from box score data. Maybe synergy does this with their PPP. I'm not sure.
    this is all correct, except that i don't think PPP subtracts o-rebs from when calculating an INDIVIDUAL's PPP. it does with team offense because the thought is that if you miss 5 shots but get all those offensive rebounds and finally score on the 6th shot, you still got two points out of that one possession, so it wipes away the five misses to basically say you as a team used ONE possession there and not SIX. but on an individual level i don't think they do that because they don't know if it was THAT player's used possession (ie, miss) that he erased with an offensive board. for example, you could have a player who comes in at the end of a game, grabs a teammate's miss and stuff it, and his PPP (if we subtracted o-rebs) would be 2/0, an undefined number. so i'm relatively sure that a player's PPP is just pts/(fga+.44fta+to)... or in other words, it's TS% times two.
    check out the jazzbros.com blog for more on the jazz.

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