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  1. #61
    Senior Member franklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infection View Post
    Yes, in his rookie year. In his second and third year, as Kanter and Favors are currently, he played 30+ in each.

    If we had obtained Lillard, there's no way on earth we'd see enough to absolutely say Lillard > Williams. We'd feel comfortable in knowing that Mo is experienced and has proven himself that clearly Mo > Lillard, and quite frankly most would probably agree. Since, in reality, we didn't get Lillard, we see quite clearly that despite being an inexperienced rookie, Lillard is most certainly superior to Williams, a former all-star.

    P.S. thanks for the negative rep.
    You don't realize the Mo Williams trade happened after the draft.

  2. #62
    Senior Member infection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    And which Jamison was no longer on the team. There was no better wing player than Dunleavy to take those minutes in year 2 and 3.
    Because Jamison and Fortson were traded away.

    And your Lillard spiel is retarded evidenced by Deron's minutes. It completely blows up your idea of how this team is run.
    I'm not talking about Deron, at all. What exactly is my idea of how this team is run and how does this blow it up?

    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    You don't realize the Mo Williams trade happened after the draft.
    Sure. Do you believe we wouldn't have traded for Williams and, if not, that at the same time we would have still ditched Harris? Either way he has Harris or Williams in front of him. In this case Harris and Williams are interchangeable in the paragraph and all statements will remain intact. In fact, let me fix it for you now:

    Quote Originally Posted by infection;
    If we had obtained Lillard, there's no way on earth we'd see enough to absolutely say Lillard > Harris. We'd feel comfortable in knowing that Harris is experienced and has proven himself that clearly Harris > Lillard, and quite frankly most would probably agree. Since, in reality, we didn't get Lillard, we see quite clearly that despite being an inexperienced rookie, Lillard is most certainly superior to Harris, a former all-star.

  3. #63
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    I don't mind the low minutes as long as there is a upward (or downward as was the case with Morrison) movement, but Favors has basically played about 21 minutes per game for all three years. Flatlining is never good! Harden is a perfect example of positive progression of minutes and look what kind of player he is now.

  4. #64
    Senior Member LunaticWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infection View Post
    Because Jamison and Fortson were traded away.
    So, in every instance listed, there has not been better players in front of these rookies. Thus, they received lots of playing time.

    We have (arguably) better players in front of them.



    I'm not talking about Deron, at all. What exactly is my idea of how this team is run and how does this blow it up?
    If we had Lillard, he would not be playing behind Watson and Tinsley. He, as Deron did, split time with Mo, and if he's worth his salt, would probably be starting over him by the end of the year. There is not nearly as big of a gap between Mo and Lillard as there is between Al/Paul and Derrick/Enes.
    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

  5. #65
    Senior Member Cyrone Torbin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    These two are just fine knowing they'll both make at least $50,000,000.00 more in their career thanks to Ty extending their careers. They don't need to waste their knees when they're young and raw, and everyone understands this.
    Also neither of them came into the league with large egos or a sense of self-entitlement. I think they are both hard workers who understand hard work will get them to were they want to go.

    Or, they realize by being somewhat of a hidden commodity may inflate their value more come FA.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member Cyrone Torbin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    So, in every instance listed, there has not been better players in front of these rookies. Thus, they received lots of playing time.

    We have (arguably) better players in front of them.



    If we had Lillard, he would not be playing behind Watson and Tinsley. He, as Deron did, split time with Mo, and if he's worth his salt, would probably be starting over him by the end of the year. There is not nearly as big of a gap between Mo and Lillard as there is between Al/Paul and Derrick/Enes.
    He would certainly be starting over him now and for the past 1.5 months.

    Also, I'm fairly certain we traded for Mo after the draft. So who knows, if we got Lillard maybe we never pursue Mo.


    *Edit*: I'm right, we got Mo the day after we didn't get Lillard. Appears as if KOC had the deal on the table and was just waiting to see if he could pull of getting Lillard before signing off on the Mo trade.
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  7. #67
    Moderator Revolution 9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaticWolf View Post
    So, in every instance listed, there has not been better players in front of these rookies. Thus, they received lots of playing time.

    We have (arguably) better players in front of them.



    If we had Lillard, he would not be playing behind Watson and Tinsley. He, as Deron did, split time with Mo, and if he's worth his salt, would probably be starting over him by the end of the year. There is not nearly as big of a gap between Mo and Lillard as there is between Al/Paul and Derrick/Enes.
    What people are most upset about is this. When Kanter/Favors start off well or hot, they are not usually rewarded with more playing time.
    Especially Kanter. Are you ok with that? You keep dumbing down the argument acting like we are saying Kanter and Favors are going to be superstars.
    Or that there is this huge gap between the players. It's just not true. The gap between the young bigs, and the vets is only on one side of the ball. Defensively the young big clearly have more skill, and play harder than the vets. Yes, Kanter does make some mistakes on defense. I see them too. He does however throw his body around, and play physically. You pro vet/stay the course guys never admit just how soft, and pathetic the vets play the middle.
    "Hayward can be a #1?"......"Maybe if he goes down to Fort Wayne...DLeague" -ESPN

  8. #68
    Moderator Revolution 9's Avatar
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    http://click.xydo.com/toolbar_view/2...&elq_cid=37645
    SALT LAKE CITY — There’s something about the moniker “lottery pick’’ that makes one automatically think “great player.’’

    Obviously, it’s not always the case — see Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi and Darko Milicic. But for the most part, especially in the NBA, it’s the players who were once lottery picks that turn out to be stars that lead their teams to championships.

    Last year’s champion Miami Heat is a prime example. They had five players who were once picked in the top six in the draft — LeBron James, Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade, Mike Miller and Shane Battier. The year before, Dallas had seven lottery picks on its champion team that included the likes of Dirk Nowitzki, Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion and Tyson Chandler.

    Go through past NBA champion teams and you’ll always find high lottery picks (top 14 in draft) from Tim Duncan to Paul Pierce to Shaquille O’Neal.

    While there are always busts, as noted above, as well as low-draft picks and non-drafted players who turn out to be excellent players, it’s the high draft picks that everyone wants to build their teams around. And more than any other sport, players drafted high in the NBA go on to become the future stars of the league.

    Utah’s new general manager Dennis Lindsey is well aware of that concept and agrees that most NBA executives hope to load up their teams with as many lottery picks as possible.

    “If you study the history of the league, you really have to respect what we call the scouting curves opinion,’’ he said. “In football and baseball you can get all-time greats in later rounds. But in basketball, the talented prodigies, like LeBron James — most times they turn into the best players in the league.’’

    Lindsey acknowledges there are “late bloomers” in basketball, but says it doesn’t happen as much as in other spots.

    “When you study where guys are taken relative to their production, it’s a pretty strong relationship that the better players are taken sooner,’’ he said.

    Remember the NBA list of the 50 greatest players ever that came out about 15 years ago? Of those 50 players, all but a handful were top-10 selections and 32 of them were top-5 picks. Of the players who have played since that list came out, those that would be considered among the all-time greats —James, Duncan, Kevin Durrant — most have been high draft picks.

    That brings us to the Utah Jazz.

    Forget for a moment about their 45-point loss Monday night and look ahead three or four years. Right now, the Jazz own more young, high lottery picks than anyone else in the NBA.

    While five teams have more total lottery picks on their rosters (New York has the most with nine, but four are 38 years or older), no team has more under the age of 25. And the Jazz has the most under the age of 22 with Gordon Hayward (22), Derrick Favors (21), Alec Burks (21) and Enes Kanter (20).

    It’s a big difference from most of Jazz history when Utah has rarely had any lottery picks. Remember neither Karl Malone nor John Stockton were a lottery pick, and those great teams of the late 1990s only had a handful of lottery picks (Chris Morris, Thurl Bailey, Felton Spencer).

    Lindsey gives all the credit to longtime Jazz general manager Kevin O’Connor, who assembled the present roster with some shrewd moves to acquire the current group of high lottery picks.

    The Jazz “earned” its lottery pick in 2005 thanks to a poor record and O’Connor traded from No. 6 to No. 3 that year to draft Deron Williams. That pick was parlayed into acquiring Favors and Kanter as well as Marvin Williams, who was traded last offseason for Devin Harris.
    "Hayward can be a #1?"......"Maybe if he goes down to Fort Wayne...DLeague" -ESPN

  9. #69
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    I argued this point over and over and over again on the old board about how great a coach Sloan was. When they went to the finals, The Bulls had 5+ lottery picks and Utah had two: Keefe and Carr (I think).

    I was mocked, told I was a Sloan homer, etc. Just like when I ripped on Brewer for years, was mocked, etc...

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  11. #70
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    Even if you agree that Al is better than Kanter (which I don't). There is no reason Enes should only be getting 14 minutes a night. There are 96 minutes available at the PF and C position. Give Kanter 17-20, Favors 20-23, Al 25 and Millsap 25. That leaves 6 minutes to give to the hot hand. Plus they can play Millsap at the 3 occasionally to add even more minutes into the mix. There is no excuse.

    Unless you believe Kantor is nothing more than a warm body to fill space while the greatest center of all time is taking a breather.
    Last edited by sgt.mac.1981; 02-01-2013 at 12:33 PM.

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