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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Third Party payers are generally a bad idea. Even Insurance Companies generally provide less care for the buck than a paying patient. A patient who has his own health and his own wallet on the line has a chance to do a little personal decision making, and if he asks relevant questions and can afford the time to study the issues, he will be a more efficient consumer. If anyone doesn't want to do that, I might just infer Darwin was right to begin with.

    So here's a case in point. Lady has cancer, and a very good doctor recommends doing a specific new type of imaging. It is explained well, and the health care professional wife and former medical researcher husband can readily see it is very much better than the alternatives.

    The insurance company is taking the decision into its own control, since they have the money to disburse. . . . . after collecting insurance premiums for decades with no payouts at all. . . . but even though this new scan is actually cheaper, they decide they can't permit it because they just don't know much about it yet.

    months later, after multiple scans with other technologies, repeated because of doubtful interpretations of inferior types of imaging, and spending about five times the money, it was only during surgery that biopsies revealed the actual fact that the scan first proposed would have indicated. . . .

    Fact is, Obamacare takes personal control of peoples own health away from them, even more than insurance companies have done, in huge swaths. . . . and there are no intrinsic limits to what can be instigated by bureaucratic decree downstream. It is the end of representative government in the most personal aspect of our lives.

    The things we have been told are generally untrue, and our support of it is universally uninformed.

    We have bought a pig in a poke. . . .
    I don't see how obamacare changes any of that.

    Yes, insurance companies are generally evil, and yes they take some control away from the patient. But that was the case before obamacare, it's not like obamacare made it that way.

    You are still free to come out of pocket and pay for things not covered by insurance just the same as you were before obamacare.

    I don't like obamacare either. But I'm against it from the left point of view. I want a single payer system, Medicare for all. And I think the medical plan the people in congress get shouldn't be reserved for a few elites. We should all get the same plan as the people in congress.

    And again, if you want something that isn't covered, you're always free to pay out of your own pocket for it. Most people can't afford to do that which is why having insurance is so important.

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaltyDawg View Post
    I don't see how obamacare changes any of that.

    Yes, insurance companies are generally evil, and yes they take some control away from the patient. But that was the case before obamacare, it's not like obamacare made it that way.

    You are still free to come out of pocket and pay for things not covered by insurance just the same as you were before obamacare.

    I don't like obamacare either. But I'm against it from the left point of view. I want a single payer system, Medicare for all. And I think the medical plan the people in congress get shouldn't be reserved for a few elites. We should all get the same plan as the people in congress.

    And again, if you want something that isn't covered, you're always free to pay out of your own pocket for it. Most people can't afford to do that which is why having insurance is so important.
    I have some literature under my elbow by some "left" leaning folks who are concerned about the specifics of Obamacare, while they would like you enthusiastically support general welfare concepts including making sure everyone gets the medical care they need.

    I'll get into that a little later. . . .

  4. #18
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    Conservatives socialized healthcare for their huge families on the state level so **** them they get what they deserve.

    I seriously had to listen through a preacher at work bitch for 20 minutes about how homos would "game the system by getting married just to put Mr. Partner onto our healthcare roles and that ain't right. Meanwhile, Conservative Douchebag gamed seven kids onto the system and fully expects the rest of us to pay for them because some conservative ******** family blah blah it's not socialism evil socialism when it pertains to me Obama gunna socialize blah blah.

    It's here; deal with it. Might as well cast your vote for the most sensible outcome that most likely isn't this abortion of a bill waiting to happen (as they designed it to be).

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
    Conservatives socialized healthcare for their huge families on the state level so **** them they get what they deserve.

    I seriously had to listen through a preacher at work bitch for 20 minutes about how homos would "game the system by getting married just to put Mr. Partner onto our healthcare roles and that ain't right. Meanwhile, Conservative Douchebag gamed seven kids onto the system and fully expects the rest of us to pay for them because some conservative ******** family blah blah it's not socialism evil socialism when it pertains to me Obama gunna socialize blah blah.

    It's here; deal with it. Might as well cast your vote for the most sensible outcome that most likely isn't this abortion of a bill waiting to happen (as they designed it to be).
    you should know better than to mistake me for a conservative. . . .whatever the hell that means.

    we haven't ever gotten to where we had a government I would really want to "conserve". Early Mormons and Early Christians by some inferences were devotees to a new world order where everyone's needs would be cared for. . . . but without needing some ******* government to get in the way of people doing what needs doing. . . . A form of socialism not mediated by gun-toting jackbooted thugs or revenue gestapo.

    I just recognize a fraud when I see one, and that's Obamacare.

  6. #20
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    eh? Just ranting about co-worker preachers was all.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    That right there is the problem. You are not supposed to infer or assume anything. You are actually supposed to find out what the hell you are talking about before you do reply.
    It would be a pretty strange kind of world, let alone discussion board, if making inferences or assumptions were inappropriate. I know well what I'm talking about, but I have serious doubts about you.

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy eat jazz View Post
    It would be a pretty strange kind of world, let alone discussion board, if making inferences or assumptions were inappropriate. I know well what I'm talking about, but I have serious doubts about you.
    As you have so aptly not shown in this thread. Very well done.


    Is that the trolling response you were looking for?
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    oh I love this. "history" is some mystical, godlike force for good that will vindicate the winners in any fight.

    human freedom has never been blessed by "history", and "America" was an aberration from the norm, which for a few years sustained a pretty good nation with more freedom and human rights and economic prosperity than any other place in time, history, or anywhere on the face of the earth.

    Yep. We are right on track with "history", heading into pretty much the same kind of life humans have elsewhere had for thousands of years. Poor little peasants trying to hide in haystacks or caves while the megalomaniacs drive their armies and/or Corporations back and forth across our fields. Hordes of petty bureaucrats swarming around to harass and annoy and generally dictate every detail of life, and take every loose coin and our crops and savings back to their luxurious mansions/castles/offshore banks. . . . .

    Yep. You won.
    You evidently lack the historical content to speak knowledgable on this topic.

    For the record, and as my last comment on the matter, I believe, and I am highly confident, that history will prove me right, that years from now, Obamacare will be seen as one of the most significant progressive reforms of our time, much like social security, Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, etc. are seen today as some of the most significant progressive reforms of their time.

    The fact is also that for every single significant progressive reform over time (I’ve provided a sampling in my earlier post) that sought to make this country more equitable and fair, to enshrine the principles of human dignity, to extend civil rights and liberties to all, to protect the weak against entrenched economic and social forces, to shift the balance of power somewhat in the direction of the powerless, to ensure the ability to participate freely and as equal members in the social, economic, and political realm, and to provide for the basic needs and safety net for all has been opposed by a shifting coalition of conservative forces representing the entrenched power structure and abetted at different times by ideologues of different stripes, traditional and dogmatic religion, racists, bigots, well-meaning principled people, and other forces. Usually these forces have predicted some version of social or economic doomsday should the progressive reform be approved—a doomsday that has universally failed to materialize. More, in hindsight and outside of a relatively small number of angry ideologues, society has also nearly universally reached general consensus after the fact that the reform in question was actually a good thing after all.

    The march of US history is toward the extension of civil rights and liberties, social and economic protections, provision of basic needs, etc. to ALL of its citizens. Those who have fought this process have consistently been on the wrong side of this history, and those who continue to fight it will, extrapolating from experience, again be on the wrong side of history. The extension of health care access to all citizens is a natural extension of this process. To say that Babe and others who fought so hard to derail universal health care access are on the wrong side of history seems to me to be a rather straightforward conclusion.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy eat jazz View Post
    You evidently lack the historical content to speak knowledgable on this topic.

    For the record, and as my last comment on the matter, I believe, and I am highly confident, that history will prove me right, that years from now, Obamacare will be seen as one of the most significant progressive reforms of our time, much like social security, Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, etc. are seen today as some of the most significant progressive reforms of their time.

    The fact is also that for every single significant progressive reform over time (I’ve provided a sampling in my earlier post) that sought to make this country more equitable and fair, to enshrine the principles of human dignity, to extend civil rights and liberties to all, to protect the weak against entrenched economic and social forces, to shift the balance of power somewhat in the direction of the powerless, to ensure the ability to participate freely and as equal members in the social, economic, and political realm, and to provide for the basic needs and safety net for all has been opposed by a shifting coalition of conservative forces representing the entrenched power structure and abetted at different times by ideologues of different stripes, traditional and dogmatic religion, racists, bigots, well-meaning principled people, and other forces. Usually these forces have predicted some version of social or economic doomsday should the progressive reform be approved—a doomsday that has universally failed to materialize. More, in hindsight and outside of a relatively small number of angry ideologues, society has also nearly universally reached general consensus after the fact that the reform in question was actually a good thing after all.

    The march of US history is toward the extension of civil rights and liberties, social and economic protections, provision of basic needs, etc. to ALL of its citizens. Those who have fought this process have consistently been on the wrong side of this history, and those who continue to fight it will, extrapolating from experience, again be on the wrong side of history. The extension of health care access to all citizens is a natural extension of this process. To say that Babe and others who fought so hard to derail universal health care access are on the wrong side of history seems to me to be a rather straightforward conclusion.
    It amazes me that you can be so close to the truth and yet still walk lock step in time to the Dems beat.
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    As you have so aptly not shown in this thread. Very well done.


    Is that the trolling response you were looking for?
    Of course not. With over 10,000 posts in little over two years, you're obviously the board's know-it-all. The Cliff Clavin of Jazzfanz.

    I'm beyond expecting any good faith, non-aholish response from you.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    It amazes me that you can be so close to the truth and yet still walk lock step in time to the Dems beat.
    I think you have no frigg'n idea what you're talking about.

    Let's begin with this. I'm not a Democrat.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy eat jazz View Post
    Of course not. With over 10,000 posts in little over two years, you're obviously the board's know-it-all. The Cliff Clavin of Jazzfanz.

    I'm beyond expecting any good faith, non-aholish response from you.
    As I am beyond expecting any rational thought from you. Continue to preach your liberal talking points brother!
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy eat jazz View Post
    I think you have no frigg'n idea what you're talking about.

    Let's begin with this. I'm not a Democrat.
    And yet every topic that comes up you are in line with their talking points. Also for the record the repubs are a similar evil. I am not defending them as much as I am having fun at your expense.

    As for how Obamacare will be view in the future. Well that all comes down to personal perspective. I am sure some will view it as you have said. I am willing to bet that a sizeable portion will not view it that way as well.
    #BelieveInLindsey #BelieveInSnyder

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy eat jazz View Post
    You evidently lack the historical content to speak knowledgable on this topic.

    For the record, and as my last comment on the matter, I believe, and I am highly confident, that history will prove me right, that years from now, Obamacare will be seen as one of the most significant progressive reforms of our time, much like social security, Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, etc. are seen today as some of the most significant progressive reforms of their time.

    The fact is also that for every single significant progressive reform over time (I’ve provided a sampling in my earlier post) that sought to make this country more equitable and fair, to enshrine the principles of human dignity, to extend civil rights and liberties to all, to protect the weak against entrenched economic and social forces, to shift the balance of power somewhat in the direction of the powerless, to ensure the ability to participate freely and as equal members in the social, economic, and political realm, and to provide for the basic needs and safety net for all has been opposed by a shifting coalition of conservative forces representing the entrenched power structure and abetted at different times by ideologues of different stripes, traditional and dogmatic religion, racists, bigots, well-meaning principled people, and other forces. Usually these forces have predicted some version of social or economic doomsday should the progressive reform be approved—a doomsday that has universally failed to materialize. More, in hindsight and outside of a relatively small number of angry ideologues, society has also nearly universally reached general consensus after the fact that the reform in question was actually a good thing after all.

    The march of US history is toward the extension of civil rights and liberties, social and economic protections, provision of basic needs, etc. to ALL of its citizens. Those who have fought this process have consistently been on the wrong side of this history, and those who continue to fight it will, extrapolating from experience, again be on the wrong side of history. The extension of health care access to all citizens is a natural extension of this process. To say that Babe and others who fought so hard to derail universal health care access are on the wrong side of history seems to me to be a rather straightforward conclusion.
    Do people still say that social security is a good thing?

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...-families.html

    Society is trending towards less and less children. Less children mean less people to pay for healthcare, social security, etc. If the trend continues, then we will reach a breaking point.

    Just because something has worked out in the past doesn't guarantee it will in the future.
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    Just like everyone else.
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  16. #30
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    The Congressional Budget Office has determined that over 7 million people will be cut from employer provided health care as it will be cheaper for employers to pay the penalty rather than insure their employees due to changes implemented by Obamacare.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...ost-7-million/

    President Obama's health care law will push 7 million people out of their job-based insurance coverage — nearly twice the previous estimate, according to the latest estimates from the Congressional Budget Office released Tuesday.

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