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  1. #31
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    You're delusional. He doesn't average that per 36 minutes now, getting more touches than he should (given how inefficiently he scores the basketball) against second units.

    Can you give me an example of a player who got the max after Favors-like production through 3 years?
    Per 36 doesn't mean squat. So lets just throw that out right now unless you want me to go get a few examples that show that. I can easily prove that to be worthless with many examples.

    Secondly, Favors offensive numbers will be skewed as long as Al is on the court hogging the touches and clogging the paint.

    Thirdly, the Jazz are the only team that buries that kind of talent on the bench. So examples can't be had. Unless you want to use Harden as an example. Its irrelevant anyways. Every situation is unique, especially this one.


    Mcgee and Jordan have been givin their chance. Favors has not. Unless you call 3 games at the beginning of last year his chance. Take Al and Paul off the court, give Favors a decent point guard, focus the offense around him, and you will get the numbers.

  2. #32
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hack View Post
    Take Al and Paul off the court, give Favors a decent point guard, focus the offense around him, and you will get the numbers.
    And you'll lose a lot of games.

    Favors is not a scorer. He's inefficient in postups and isos, and hasn't even been effective finishing on pick and rolls this season. That anyone could possibly consider him one of the best offensive bigs in the NBA is mystifying.

    Do you really think Favors is a better scorer than Millsap, Greg Monroe, Nene, Dwight Howard and Al Horford?
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  3. #33
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hack View Post
    Per 36 doesn't mean squat. So lets just throw that out right now unless you want me to go get a few examples that show that. I can easily prove that to be worthless with many examples.
    I'd love some examples of bigs who averaged an inefficient 9 points in 20+ minutes per game in their third year who suddenly became efficient 18 point per game scorers.

    While you're at it, you could provide those examples of players who produced similar to Favors and got max deals.
    Last edited by GVC; 02-16-2013 at 07:21 PM.
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  4. #34
    Premium Member QuinSnydersHair's Avatar
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    *chirp, chirp*
    Originally Posted by DutchJazzer
    i might be the first retard in the internet then...cam on the internet in 1993 :P

  5. #35
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    Hack is delusional

  6. #36
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    I think $12 is in the ballpark for Favors after looking at comparables. And the Jazz have worked at keeping favors salary down i believe. Jazz want Big Al/Sap to be as productive as possible to maximize trade options, they want to make the playoffs for pure profit reasons and they want to keep Favors salary under control. Ty is not stupid for his coaching plans, he being coached on his coaching plans. Same with Kanter. If either of these two were to show too well too early, it could thwart the overall plan. (Same with Burks i believe.) But also, if Mo was healthy AND if he melded in nicely, (a big if) the Jazz would be closer to a 4 seed playoff team, furthering the profit motive. And furthering the youngin's buried on the bench...

    Also, in the original post I did not take into account, as someone noted, how to pay for the rookies in the next 3 years. These are $1, $2M at least on the books for mid to late 1st rounders. This is another variable that makes it less likely to pay a Core4 for the long term (unless you sandbag them a bit.) But Vslice said the model is to get Core3 and trade out role players through draft/trade planning so as to have a lot more rookie contracts to pay. Did the core three model come first, or did Tim Duncan's salary demand it... Did tim every get the 17+M?

    One of the variables in this is Millsap's attitude toward starting. If he is demanding that role, then he should not be resigned. If he's willing to take what GVC outlined in another thread which is the pay up front model, then this significantly helps the C4 problem. I think Sap is a very good fit (not being identical) to the Favors/Kanter combo.

    Also consideration to a Core4 model is the idea that it creates less chance to go to all-star game and be a 'franchise player.' Not enough ball to go around for that many players; stats are diluted. If you add Sap, MoWill in to that mix it ends up being C5-6 - even less likely to get all-star stats. The hope is that the players in the C4-6 we have now would be interested in this model... the only hope actually. Lebron is not walking through the ESA (home team) door... So maybe Ty is not a Turd at all. Maybe the Jazz are working a smart plan.

  7. #37
    Senior Member illyasova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harcher View Post
    I think $12 is in the ballpark for Favors after looking at comparables. And the Jazz have worked at keeping favors salary down i believe. Jazz want Big Al/Sap to be as productive as possible to maximize trade options, they want to make the playoffs for pure profit reasons and they want to keep Favors salary under control. Ty is not stupid for his coaching plans, he being coached on his coaching plans. Same with Kanter. If either of these two were to show too well too early, it could thwart the overall plan. (Same with Burks i believe.) But also, if Mo was healthy AND if he melded in nicely, (a big if) the Jazz would be closer to a 4 seed playoff team, furthering the profit motive. And furthering the youngin's buried on the bench...
    You must be Polyanna
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    I'd love some examples of bigs who averaged an inefficient 9 points in 20+ minutes per game in their third year who suddenly became efficient 18 point per game scorers.

    While you're at it, you could provide those examples of players who produced similar to Favors and got max deals.
    You seriously dont know what you are talking about. Favors situation is completely different than any other situation. He is buried on the bench behind vets all in the name of an organization's philosophy that they don't make trades and dont play young guys.

    If you want examples then look no further than the two guys you keep using as examples. They didn't get max deals, but they got a lot of money for not producing great numbers and not playing big minutes. Mcgee and Jordan only average 20 min a game for their careers. What had they even proven when they got their money? Favors could average more points than either of them right now.

    You simply just dont have the skill to recognize the differences in talent. You can talk about per 36 and other junk stats all you want but it dont mean squat. There are just too many factors involved in this case for that stuff to matter.

    And you never answered my question of whether or not KOC still makes that trade with Mcgee or Jordan as the center piece. You have been dancing all around that this whole time..


    Favors will get more money than Mcgee or Jordan. I guarantee it. You dont know what you are talking about.
    Last edited by Hack; 02-17-2013 at 02:39 AM.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harcher View Post
    I think $12 is in the ballpark for Favors after looking at comparables. And the Jazz have worked at keeping favors salary down i believe. Jazz want Big Al/Sap to be as productive as possible to maximize trade options, they want to make the playoffs for pure profit reasons and they want to keep Favors salary under control. Ty is not stupid for his coaching plans, he being coached on his coaching plans. Same with Kanter. If either of these two were to show too well too early, it could thwart the overall plan. (Same with Burks i believe.) But also, if Mo was healthy AND if he melded in nicely, (a big if) the Jazz would be closer to a 4 seed playoff team, furthering the profit motive. And furthering the youngin's buried on the bench...

    Also, in the original post I did not take into account, as someone noted, how to pay for the rookies in the next 3 years. These are $1, $2M at least on the books for mid to late 1st rounders. This is another variable that makes it less likely to pay a Core4 for the long term (unless you sandbag them a bit.) But Vslice said the model is to get Core3 and trade out role players through draft/trade planning so as to have a lot more rookie contracts to pay. Did the core three model come first, or did Tim Duncan's salary demand it... Did tim every get the 17+M?

    One of the variables in this is Millsap's attitude toward starting. If he is demanding that role, then he should not be resigned. If he's willing to take what GVC outlined in another thread which is the pay up front model, then this significantly helps the C4 problem. I think Sap is a very good fit (not being identical) to the Favors/Kanter combo.

    Also consideration to a Core4 model is the idea that it creates less chance to go to all-star game and be a 'franchise player.' Not enough ball to go around for that many players; stats are diluted. If you add Sap, MoWill in to that mix it ends up being C5-6 - even less likely to get all-star stats. The hope is that the players in the C4-6 we have now would be interested in this model... the only hope actually. Lebron is not walking through the ESA (home team) door... So maybe Ty is not a Turd at all. Maybe the Jazz are working a smart plan.
    This is completely idiotic. You, GVC and zbone need to lay off the bud.

    Your not going to keep the salaries under control of Favors and Kanter by keeping them on the bench. If you were to succeed then it will turn into a disaster. Wtf? You think Kanter and Favors are going to appreciate that B.S. ?

    It isn't going to happen anyways. The league isn't built that way. There is a lot of guaranteed money out there to be had and it will go to the top talent in the league. A lot of guys will be overpaid. You don't have to be a true max player to get max money. Gm's around the league will be eyeing Kanter and Favors for big money if we don't pay. This is 100% guaranteed. There is no maybe here. Its going to happen. Talented bigs aren't just floating all around the league. Deandre Jordan can't shoot free throws, can't hit a shot, not a good rebounder, and doesn't have to play starter minutes to make 10 mil a year. Mcgee doesn't even have to play good or give a rats ass about what he is doing out there to make 10 mil a year.

    I can't believe I am even arguing with you clowns.

  10. #40
    Senior Member GVC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harcher View Post
    I think $12 is in the ballpark for Favors after looking at comparables.
    I'd say that's about right. Matches with the players I've listed, all of whom showed more than Favors through 3 seasons.

    Hack, you certainly are skilled at writing a lot of words and saying absolutely nothing. Bravo. Instead of ranting angrily, you could maybe try to support your wild assertions. Favors being a better free throw shooter than two players who are widely believed to be overpaid doesn't make him a max player. Again, can you provide a single example of a comparable player who either made the jump from an inefficient 9 points in 20+ minutes to an efficient 18 points per game or got the max? Throwing a fit, screaming "I'M SMART! YOU'RE STUPID!" isn't all that convincing.

    And no, I don't think the Jazz would trade Favors for Jordan or McGee. That doesn't make Favors a max player.
    Last edited by GVC; 02-17-2013 at 08:10 AM.
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  11. #41
    Thunder Fanatic honz's Avatar
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    Did somebody say bud?
    My love for Gordy Hayward is unabashed.

  12. #42
    Senior Member orangello's Avatar
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    The era in the NBA of throwing out max contracts is coming to an end quickly. We will start to see less and less of it.

    As good as I think Favors can be he is still not as good as Ibaka who only got 12 million in a year. I think that is where Favors will be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    So I was very mad about the game, but I wasn't going to vent here, because you guys all feel the same way. However, Ty's postgame interview got my blood boiling. On why he let Trey and Gordon play while having bad games, "You gotta let them battle through it because that's what you gotta do." Really are you kidding me. You have to balls to say that when you pulled Alec after 16 minutes against LAC and Kanter got 19 minutes toinght?

  13. #43
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    Favors would likely get a max deal if it weren't for the new cba. I don't know if he will with the new one. I think salaries in general will go down, but don't know how much and if it will effect the higher tier ad much as middle to lower tiered salaries.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
    I'd say that's about right. Matches with the players I've listed, all of whom showed more than Favors through 3 seasons.

    Hack, you certainly are skilled at writing a lot of words and saying absolutely nothing. Bravo. Instead of ranting angrily, you could maybe try to support your wild assertions. Favors being a better free throw shooter than two players who are widely believed to be overpaid doesn't make him a max player. Again, can you provide a single example of a comparable player who either made the jump from an inefficient 9 points in 20+ minutes to an efficient 18 points per game or got the max? Throwing a fit, screaming "I'M SMART! YOU'RE STUPID!" isn't all that convincing.

    And no, I don't think the Jazz would trade Favors for Jordan or McGee. That doesn't make Favors a max player.
    I do believe you called me delusional and illiterate before I called out your intelligence. So actually you threw the fit and screamed "I'm smart your stupid". I know you can't remember that though because you smoke too much weed, and we know facts dont matter to you. This is your world buddy. We are all just living in it.

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  16. #45
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangello View Post
    The era in the NBA of throwing out max contracts is coming to an end quickly. We will start to see less and less of it.

    As good as I think Favors can be he is still not as good as Ibaka who only got 12 million in a year. I think that is where Favors will be.

    That's wrong I believe. Contracts will be coming down, but only for the bottom half of the league. The top half will still be wildly over paid. It will be a seperation of the must haves and must have nots.

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