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  1. #1
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    Debunking the "losing is bad for culture" people. To win a title, you have to suck.

    Teams that have played in the NBA finals since 2000:

    Miami
    OKC
    Dallas
    LA
    Bos
    Orl
    SA
    Cle
    Dal
    Mia
    Det
    NJ
    Phi
    Ind

    EVERY SINGLE TEAM HAD A TOP FIVE PICK EXCEPT FOR DALLAS, LA AND BOSTON. We are not Dallas, LA or Boston (and LA traded for Kobe at 13, drafted Bynum at 10, Boston drafted Pierce at 10, and Dallas took Dirk at 9, so all of those teams sucked to become champions as well).

    Look at the picks taken in the top five:

    Dwayne Wade
    Kevin Durant
    Russell Westbrook
    Dwight Howard
    Tim Duncan
    LeBron James
    Devin Harris
    Kenyon Martin
    Allen Iverson
    Rick Smits

    Picked 5-10:

    Dirk Nowitzski
    Andrew Bynum
    Paul Pierce
    Richard Hamilton

    Other lottery picks:

    Kobe Bryant
    Richard Jefferson

    If you don't have "losing" seasons, then none of those teams wins titles.

    What else do you need to win a title?

    Trades for very, very good players. Look at players acquired through trades:

    Tyson Chandler
    Pau Gasol
    Lamar Odom
    Ray Allen
    Kevin Garnett
    Jason Terry
    Alonzo Mourning
    Shaquille O'Neal
    Rasheed Wallace
    Jason Kidd
    Dikembe Mutumbo
    Jalen Rose
    Mark Jackson

    Then toss in a FA signing or two:

    LeBron James
    Chris Bosh
    Jason Kidd
    Hedo Turkeyglue
    Rashard Lewis
    Donyell Marshall
    Chauncy Billups

    Basically, what you need to win a title is this:

    A top five pick in the draft that is a great pick. Out of the 14 "different" teams (I say different because the Dallas, Miami and LA teams all featured different "key" players), OKC, Miami, Dallas, Boston, Orlando, San Antonio, Cleveland, Dallas, Miami, NJ, Phi, and Indiana all had a top pick turn into a superstar.

    Out of the 14 teams, only LA, Miami and Boston traded for or signed their championship teams. LA traded for Kobe and Gasol, and signed Shaq. Miami traded for Shaq and signed LeBron and Bosh. Boston traded for Garnett and Allen.

    So, losing does not make you a loser. Losing with a bad management team in place that does not draft well, makes you a loser. The Jazz are a well run organization, and have been very good at high draft picks. Look at our last four top 10 picks (I threw Burks in there to make the Jazz look good): Deron, Hayward, Kanter, Burks.

    Now, who can the Jazz model after on that list? Not LA, Miami, Dallas, or Boston. They can't bring in the free agents that those teams can. They need to follow the pattern of OKC, Orl, SA, Cle, Dallas (the old Dallas team) and NJ. All of those teams had a star they drafted (Westbrook/Durant, Howard, Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, LeBron, Harris/Dirk/Howard, Martin/Jefferson.

    Then each of those teams added through trades except SA and OKC. OKC did it through a couple of really bad years to get Harden, SA was able to draft amazingly well (luck in some ways, for example, lucky that Lopez couldn't come over right away so Parker fell to them).

    Now, where does that leave the Jazz? In a great position. Right now it appears that they may have their star in the making (Kanter). Kanter looks to be a big that you can build around. On top of that, toss in Favors and Hayward and the Jazz have an outstanding core. They need to follow the path of Orl, Cle, Dallas and NJ and add players through trades to put them over the top (as well as get rid of high priced players that will not lead to a title).

    If Utah lets Al and Paul walk, they are still in a great position in that they can turn the team over to Kanter and let him develop into "The Guy", they will be in a position to make a trade for an "over-the-top" guy (such as Tyson Chandler, Odom, Allen, Terry, Mourning, Rasheed, Kidd, Mutumbo, Mark Jackson, Jalen Rose were for their teams development into title contenders).

    Also, if Kanter develops overnight and the Jazz skyrocket up the standings, great. Fantastic. If they don't, and they end up with a top 5 pick, then great. Fantastic. We are even better.

    If you think one season of missing the playoffs is going to turn the Jazz into the Clippers, you are a moron. Sorry. With the young talent we have, one season out of the playoffs only makes us better.

    The best thing that can happen to the Jazz is Al and possibly Paul being gone next year (if he gets a deal over 12+ per year).

    Kanter is already better than both of them (which is another testament to how horrible of a coach Corbin is, that Kanter still isn't starting over Paul or Favors). Favors isn't far behind.

    For the Jazz to be a title contender, we need Hayward to improve a little bit more, have Kanter develop into a star, Favors turn into Chandler or better and turn cap space into a SF.

    We aren't that far off what other teams have done...as long as Al and Corbin aren't back. If either one of those two is back, then throw all this out the window and realize the Jazz aren't trying to win titles...just bucks.

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  3. #2
    Moderator Stoked's Avatar
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    This is a faulty arguement due to the initial premise. There is a difference between losing and trying to lose or rooting for failure. If the Jazz try to win every game and lose every game then so be it. But rooting for failure? Pathetic. That is what is being thrown around here. Rooting for failure.

    Be honest please.
    #BelieveInLindsey

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    This is a faulty arguement due to the initial premise. There is a difference between losing and trying to lose or rooting for failure. If the Jazz try to win every game and lose every game then so be it. But rooting for failure? Pathetic. That is what is being thrown around here. Rooting for failure.

    Be honest please.
    You are insinuating that Jazz fans want the Jazz to turn into the Clippers. We don't. We want to turn into Orlando/SA/OKC/NJ/every other team I listed. We want to win a title, and we are smart enough (unlike Jazz fans that think getting the 8th seed is fantastic) to know that being stuck in the middle isn't progress.

    AND, most Jazz fans that talk about "failing" aren't talking about losing just to lose. Most Jazz fans are saying that they are sick of watching the wiley old vets lose to middle of the road teams and want to see the young guns play, and if that means losing, then so be it, we would have progressed further than sticking with Al for 38 mins and Kanter for 12.

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    This is a faulty arguement due to the initial premise. There is a difference between losing and trying to lose or rooting for failure. If the Jazz try to win every game and lose every game then so be it. But rooting for failure? Pathetic. That is what is being thrown around here. Rooting for failure.

    Be honest please.
    Let's be honest. What are your demands from the Jazz? What should their ultimate goal be, that keeps you happy and spending money/time on the Utah Jazz?

  6. #5
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    So we nee to tank, pick a superstar, then make a nice trade and sign some big FA's? Good post, you have cracked the code.

  7. #6
    Senior Member Hack's Avatar
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    I tried to rep you green but can't.


    There is no point in explaining this to certain people green. Either you get it, or you don't.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hack View Post
    I tried to rep you green but can't.


    There is no point in explaining this to certain people green. Either you get it, or you don't.
    I think everyone on earth gets the magical formula explained here. Its just retarded to think you can plan it out and accomplish it. Its gotta be organic baby, or you need to be LA, Miami, Boston, and just get whomever you want.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Weezur's Avatar
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    I agree. Let's tank and draft the next Greg Oden.

  10. #9
    Beer Fan Jeditiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by green View Post
    Let's be honest. What are your demands from the Jazz? What should their ultimate goal be, that keeps you happy and spending money/time on the Utah Jazz?
    I want the Jazz to be competitive in every game and make the playoffs.

  11. #10
    Senior Member Hotttnickkk's Avatar
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    With the emergence of Kanter and Favors late this season, I think it's fair to say KOC and Lindsey are not stupid enough to bring Big Al back to clog up the frontline.

    Both those guys are READY.
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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by green View Post
    Look at the picks taken in the top five:

    Dwayne Wade - got paired up with Shaq and lebron
    Kevin Durant - great pick, baller, got paired up with westbrook
    Russell Westbrook - ditto for durrant
    Dwight Howard - Hasn't won ****
    Tim Duncan - paired up with David Robinson, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli and the great POP
    LeBron James - Probably the greatest player of all time, got paired up with Bosh and Wade
    Devin Harris - eats buttholes
    Kenyon Martin - has aids
    Allen Iverson - baller ass baller but never won a championship
    Rick Smits - the dunkin dutchman RIP, had reggie freaking miller

    Picked 5-10:

    Dirk Nowitzski - didnt win **** until Cuban brought in a great team through FA
    Andrew Bynum - had kobe and Pau
    Paul Pierce - sucked ass till they got KG, Ray and Rondo
    Richard Hamilton - Intricate piece to a great TEAM

    Other lottery picks:

    Kobe Bryant -Shaq, Pau,
    Richard Jefferson - had a few solid years but sucks ass
    So the moral of the story is the draft is probably the smallest part of the equation. FA > trades > drafting .....thanks for wasting your afternoon doing that pointless research.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotttnickkk View Post
    With the emergence of Kanter and Favors late this season, I think it's fair to say KOC and Lindsey are not stupid enough to bring Big Al back to clog up the frontline.

    Both those guys are READY.
    With the way Kanter has played the last week, I am believing you more and more every day.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartsock View Post
    So we nee to tank, pick a superstar, then make a nice trade and sign some big FA's? Good post, you have cracked the code.
    That's not what I said. I said we already had our superstar, we need to get rid of the dead weight and build around that superstar.

    With what we have right now, Kanter is our potential superstar. We need to turn the team over to him (and with Hayward as well) and see what they can do. We need to quit allowing very, very good players in Millsap, Al, Mo (and in Corbin's mind), Foye, and Williams to take the bulk of the minutes.

    Once the team is turned over to our "championship potential" (because Al, Millsap, Foye, Williams x2 will never lead any team to a title) player, Kanter, then the Jazz can go to work. We can see what Kanter is, and if it takes a year for him to fully take over and we suck for a year, great, we add another piece that has championship potential.

    If Kanter blows up and is amazing year one, then great. We have a TON of capspace to go find our "over-the-top" trade to put this team over the top.

    Also, more proof that you didn't read a word I said, I never once said the Jazz had to go sign good FA's.

    I have complimented the Jazz organization in saying that they have done everything right personnel-wise, they just need to cut the safety cord from Al and Paul and other crappy vets.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by green View Post
    That's not what I said. I said we already had our superstar, we need to get rid of the dead weight and build around that superstar.

    With what we have right now, Kanter is our potential superstar. We need to turn the team over to him (and with Hayward as well) and see what they can do. We need to quit allowing very, very good players in Millsap, Al, Mo (and in Corbin's mind), Foye, and Williams to take the bulk of the minutes.

    Once the team is turned over to our "championship potential" (because Al, Millsap, Foye, Williams x2 will never lead any team to a title) player, Kanter, then the Jazz can go to work. We can see what Kanter is, and if it takes a year for him to fully take over and we suck for a year, great, we add another piece that has championship potential.

    If Kanter blows up and is amazing year one, then great. We have a TON of capspace to go find our "over-the-top" trade to put this team over the top.

    Also, more proof that you didn't read a word I said, I never once said the Jazz had to go sign good FA's.

    I have complimented the Jazz organization in saying that they have done everything right personnel-wise, they just need to cut the safety cord from Al and Paul and other crappy vets.
    I read every word, Utah is not a FA destination so dont plan on signing a superstar, as far as trades go generally good players have some say as to what happens, so dont plan on getting a great player in a trade without giving up a ton if not all of our young core. Tha Lakers get great trades like that because well, they are the lakers.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Hotttnickkk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartsock View Post
    I read every word, Utah is not a FA destination so dont plan on signing a superstar, as far as trades go generally good players have some say as to what happens, so dont plan on getting a great player in a trade without giving up a ton if not all of our young core. Tha Lakers get great trades like that because well, they are the lakers.
    wow.. really? ahh... Alaska.
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