Accountability

so I have been patient with the “rebuild” of this team. I really liked Dennis, and how he seems like a smart man. But I have to vent a little. He has failed badly. This franchise has no direction at all. We are stuck in the middle with 1 good player and a bunch of scrubs. If His plan was to keep Douchbagward here, then he needs to be accountable for failing at this. I like the guy, he talks a good game, but so far he has been a ****** GM. He never spends money on players. It’s like hes proud of being the Boston Celtics d league team. Pull your head out Dennis! I hate to say it but he needs to go. When he was given the job KOC left him in very good shape. Look at where we are now. We have made the playoffs 1 time in what will be 6 years with absolutely no direction, identity, or assets moving forward. How long does he need? I am done fire him! Next man up.

Instead of Jonathan Simmons we sign Jerekbo and Thabo. Great guys, but c'mon, strive for more

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Dennis Lindsey should be fired because Hayward exercised his autonomy? And your solution is what, trade every franchise player in their contract year just in case?

Also, in case you didn't know, the Jazz offered Hayward everything they could, which was more than any other team could offer. If you're referring to Hayward's first non-rookie contract that the Jazz attempted to be frugal on, Hayward was still a potential max player after year 4. In other words, he wasn't very good. For seeing what happened with the money they were throwing around for AK, Harpring (number of years given his injury history) and Memo (namely the jaw-droppingly dumb extension) and the consequences thereof, one would think maybe not overpaying for mediocre-but-good players might be a prudent consideration.

Dennis Lindsey inherited Tyrone Corbin, a capped out team that had no identity, and an organization that resisted a full-scale rebuild after it lost its best player since Stockton/Malone. His only fault there was taking the job.

The only real problems I have with decision-making since he took over is not trading Al Jefferson, and can only in hindsight be upset about drafting Trey Burke (who nearly everyone thought was a homerun move at the time).

Ultimately, he had no control over Hayward. The only thing that might have given GH pause is a major major signing or trade. We're talking another established, multi-time all-star. Paul George. Chris Paul. Take your pick of those that switched teams this offseason. But I think there is enough evidence that Hayward really wasn't sticking around. But we can certainly rip him for not putting enough of a team around Hayward in the several seasons that he was around.

The sticking point now, is that there was no plan B. The trade for Rubio happened quickly, iirc. And it was a cute thought to try to put together the #1 D in the league. But the offense has ruined any chance that it would've worked.

I'm all onboard the tank and actually have been since Hayward left. I think it's time to drop the "old guard". That core that was supposed to build and compete together... GH, Favors, Hood, Kanter... remember those days? We've got 4-7 years to find a complete team to put around Rudy or at the very least, Mitchell. It's clear as day what can happen when you have young, top tier talent. See Philly, Milwaukee, etc.

So what can DL do? Start to take accountability and not be afraid to make some serious moves and finally move Favors and possibly Hood. Let Mitchell have as many reps as possible without letting him turn into the next Trey Burke.

To me, the only question of what to do now is whether you're trading Rudy at peak value or not. This team needs to tank this season, though, regardless.

Maybe it was Lindsey's job to have good intel on Hayward. Maybe the Jazz should've spent cap in 2015 (but in hindsight... who? Outbidding for Demarre Carroll?). It sucks that Lyles sucks and Booker ended up being good, but the Jazz appeared to be stacked on the perimeter and had to find a dynamic 4 (I would've went with Portis at the time).

In short, Dennis Lindsey is one human being that exists within the organization. I think he's done a good job, and minds around the league that aren't obsessed with one team and can see the big picture pretty much unanimously agree.

It would be great to be better.

I wouldn’t have invest so much into hayward. Dennis did, he hedged his bet that he could get him to sign and he failed that’s all. Obviously Dennis can’t control what Hoeward did, but he still needs to be accountable for the failure to sign him. I would have moved Hayward before it got to that point OR I would have given the real max at his rookie contract if he was my guy (which he oviously was to Dennis). Dennis completely mismanaged That situation and got burned. He needs to be held accountable is all I am saying. And let’s be honest, he hasent done well in drafting or getting free agent talent. If you look at the entire picture he has been bad. Average at drafting. Poor at getting talent here. Poor at contract management. You guys honestly think he has done a good job?

Utesnjazz said:

I wouldn’t have invest so much into hayward. Dennis did, he hedged his bet that he could get him to sign and he failed that’s all. Obviously Dennis can’t control what Hoeward did, but he still needs to be accountable for the failure to sign him. I would have moved Hayward before it got to that point OR I would have given the real max at his rookie contract if he was my guy (which he oviously was to Dennis). Dennis completely mismanaged That situation and got burned. He needs to be held accountable is all I am saying. And let’s be honest, he hasent done well in drafting or getting free agent talent. If you look at the entire picture he has been bad. Average at drafting. Poor at getting talent here. Poor at contract management. You guys honestly think he has done a good job?

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Umm. Yeah. Because he has, most NBA minds (and every single one that I know of) agree.

Let's do a little exercise. Go team-by-team and see how often teams pass on guys that become stars. They're stars because they're the exception. Very few pan out that way. And for the whiff that was Trey Lyles, Lindsey redeemed himself in a way few can say by flipping that into Donovan Mitchell.

I've been more critical of Lindsey than most on the board, but he's been quite good (but obviously some distance from perfect). The idea that anything else is better than what you have (the status quo) is what gets you Donald Trump as president.

Also, the idea that firing someone is apparently the only way for one to be held accountable is laughable.

It seems like at any given time there is only ten franchise type players in the league that can win you a championship.
They are very hard to acquire.
There will always be 20 or more teams that will not have a chance to get a title.
Lindsay is one of twenty GMs that may not get that chance.

Utesnjazz said:

I wouldn’t have invest so much into hayward. Dennis did, he hedged his bet that he could get him to sign and he failed that’s all. Obviously Dennis can’t control what Hoeward did, but he still needs to be accountable for the failure to sign him. I would have moved Hayward before it got to that point OR I would have given the real max at his rookie contract if he was my guy (which he oviously was to Dennis). Dennis completely mismanaged That situation and got burned. He needs to be held accountable is all I am saying. And let’s be honest, he hasent done well in drafting or getting free agent talent. If you look at the entire picture he has been bad. Average at drafting. Poor at getting talent here. Poor at contract management. You guys honestly think he has done a good job?

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Hindsight...

I was one of the minority here that thought we should match Hayward but I'm sure you would have given him the five year max because it was a nobrainer. People forget so quick that Hayward wasn't a max player.

He went all in a n Hayward returning. He needs to go all in on a rebuild around DM and Rudy.

He's made some mistakes but has hit on more than a few... his GM percentage still good in my mind.

Handlogten's Heros said:

Hindsight...

I was one of the minority here that thought we should match Hayward but I'm sure you would have given him the five year max because it was a nobrainer. People forget so quick that Hayward wasn't a max player.

He went all in a n Hayward returning. He needs to go all in on a rebuild around DM and Rudy.

He's made some mistakes but has hit on more than a few... his GM percentage still good in my mind.

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Uhh, no, Hayward was clearly a max player. It was utterly stupid what DL. That being said, a lot of people here thought the same as DL. Hayward had a lackluster year and the Jazz thought they could get him on a bargain deal. It was stupid.

Saint Cy of JFC said:

Uhh, no, Hayward was clearly a max player. It was utterly stupid what DL. That being said, a lot of people here thought the same as DL. Hayward had a lackluster year and the Jazz thought they could get him on a bargain deal. It was stupid.

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I thought so but no one here was saying give him the five year max... most called him the second coming of AK and said matching the contract would cripple us. We blew it the year before his FA. Looking back I think he just didn't want to be here anyway.

People do not appreciate how incredibly mediocre KOC was. In hindsight, I believe Larry really held this ship together post Stockton and Malone and Greg and KOC were well on their way to dismantling this franchise until Greg stepped away and DL came in. There are quite a few moves is disagree with DL on, but I believe he is top level GM talent and I give him a lot of leeway. KOC had a definite ceiling and the range of his ceiling was found in the mediocre range. In the end, he hired the right successor, and our path forward runs through, and stars, DL.

I'm all for holding people accountable, shooting at dawn is my preferred means, no blindfold offered. However I think DL is doing a decent job, losing Judus is obviously a set back but lets see where we are in two years.

the jazz have two really good players and a solid player for the future. rudy, donovan and hood. the rest are expendable. Exum has been hurt for two season and rehab one so the jury is still out but DL shouldn't be held accountability for his injuries.

I will say that if DL doesn't actually do a sizeable tear down now that he and the other members of management just don't get it. Hinkie went a little far with how brazen he was when tanking but he was right.

He didn't hit on on his top picks and ignoring FA was a bit of a mistake, but he gave them opportunities to find all star talent. If the cap wasn't going up during the tank it would have been even better because there would have been a lot more salary dumps available to gather picks.

We don't have to move Rudy or do a multi year tank if we hit on a top 7 pick this year. This is a golden opportunity... don't blow it.

infection said:

People do not appreciate how incredibly mediocre KOC was. In hindsight, I believe Larry really held this ship together post Stockton and Malone and Greg and KOC were well on their way to dismantling this franchise until Greg stepped away and DL came in. There are quite a few moves is disagree with DL on, but I believe he is top level GM talent and I give him a lot of leeway. KOC had a definite ceiling and the range of his ceiling was found in the mediocre range. In the end, he hired the right successor, and our path forward runs through, and stars, DL.

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I agree that Larry was the one that probably held the ship together, but bottom line is that KOC made the playoffs nearly every year as our GM. With Dennis it rarely happens.

You guys are probably right, that fireing him would be a dumb basketball move,(it’s just the unreasonable fan in me) but if we are being realistic, with what we expected out of Dennis, he has failed, and it’s getting ugly

I think he is doing pretty well.

I am sorry, not to insult anyone’s comments, but this thread is as bad as greasy taco gravy. Jonathan Simmons wouldn’t tip the needle for 3 more wins or even come close to replacing Hayward. Quin and DL said a few weeks ago that this period is for evaluation of the roster and decide what moves can be made. Hayward became very valuable because Burks, Exum, and Favors have all dealt with major lingering injuries. Does Otto Porter make this team a Finals competitor? Would Ainge give a draft pick or asset up when he knew A Hayward signing was just a matter of time? The Jazz making Hayward test the market was good business. Look at all of the teams that have mediocre starters on disgusting contracts. What mythical player or GM are you going to hire that will turn this team into a champion in 3-5 years? Go back and count how many years it took John and Karl to make the finals. This generation of stars want to ride each other’s coat tails and get a championship easy because they don’t want to be remembered as ringless. Or because having a ring gives them a super Tinder account. Take a breath and let this team rebuild without rushing in to extending players who will Allen Houston is.

Utesnjazz said:

I agree that Larry was the one that probably held the ship together, but bottom line is that KOC made the playoffs nearly every year as our GM. With Dennis it rarely happens.

You guys are probably right, that fireing him would be a dumb basketball move,(it’s just the unreasonable fan in me) but if we are being realistic, with what we expected out of Dennis, he has failed, and it’s getting ugly

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He hasn't failed. Only a fan with an unreasonable expectation would say he's failed.