What's new
By:
Filters

Jon Stewart on white privilege (cc: unnamed posters... etc.)

dalamon said:
my last word— making white people feel guilty is the right goal because white people are the ones who created and maintain white privilege— without shaming, change cannot occur. I am happy that this term has reached such a prominent level of discourse that it makes you uncomfortable. That, precisely, is the goal.
Click to expand...

As a white dude, I get that there are certain things that may give me certain advantages and privileges. There are things I don't have to worry about as much because I'm white. I understand I do not know what it's like to be something other than white dude living in America. I'll never have the personal experiences of being discriminated against as a minority or being at the wrong color of privilege.

Should I feel ashamed and guilty about this?

My other question is, if your goal is to shame people, make them feel uncomfortable and guilty based off the color of their skin, how is that going to make society better?

I think people should feel shame and guilt based off of their own specific wrongdoings. I'm not on board with wanting others to feel guilt and shame based off of the wrongdoing of others, generalities, notions, perceptions, sins of their fathers.

Wouldn't it be more productive to educate and enlighten those with certain privileges so they listen and understand injustices, racism, privileges, etc? Should someone who's informed and actively engaging to learn more, progress and fight for equality still feel guilty?
 
Archie Moses said:
Should I feel ashamed and guilty about this?

My other question is, if your goal is to shame people, make them feel uncomfortable and guilty based off the color of their skin, how is that going to make society better?

I think people should feel shame and guilt based off of their own specific wrongdoings. I'm not on board with wanting others to feel guilt and shame based off of the wrongdoing of others, generalities, notions, perceptions, sins of their fathers.

Wouldn't it be more productive to educate and enlighten those with certain privileges so they listen and understand injustices, racism, privileges, etc? Should someone who's informed and actively engaging to learn more, progress and fight for equality still feel guilty?
Click to expand...

Shame and guilt are negative and destructive. Unfortunately, when some activists are calling for awareness, empathy, and action, some people here these calls as calls to shame and guilt. I don't feel guilty for being white, I try to use my whiteness to help others that are not white, when that help doesn't interfere with people helping themselves.
 
One Brow said:
Shame and guilt are negative and destructive. Unfortunately, when some activists are calling for awareness, empathy, and action, some people here these calls as calls to shame and guilt. I don't feel guilty for being white, I try to use my whiteness to help others that are not white, when that help doesn't interfere with people helping themselves.
Click to expand...
The problem is this goes both ways, and there are direct calls for white people to feel guilty and ashamed for being white, well beyond calls for awareness, empathy, and action. And unfortunately that will turn a lot of people off in any discussion around the topic.
 
LogGrad98 said:
The problem is this goes both ways, and there are direct calls for white people to feel guilty and ashamed for being white, well beyond calls for awareness, empathy, and action. And unfortunately that will turn a lot of people off in any discussion around the topic.
Click to expand...

Whom do you see as making direct calls for feeling guilty? Any particular speeches?
 
One Brow said:
Whom do you see as making direct calls for feeling guilty? Any particular speeches?
Click to expand...
Well dalamon up above for one (was that in this thread?). I've seen such comments on social media more than a little.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Well dalamon up above for one (was that in this thread?). I've seen such comments on social media more than a little.
Click to expand...

@dalamon mixes together guilt, shame, and discomfort. Of those, I would agree that making people uncomfortable is a worthy goal. Shaming and guilting people is as likely to produce push-back, in my limited experience, but discomfort without shame or guilt can be effective.
 
One Brow said:
@dalamon mixes together guilt, shame, and discomfort. Of those, I would agree that making people uncomfortable is a worthy goal. Shaming and guilting people is as likely to produce push-back, in my limited experience, but discomfort without shame or guilt can be effective.
Click to expand...
Agreed. But a call for outright guilt and shame is just counterproductive.
 
Bulletproof said:
I'm with you. I am.

But I want you to understand where these other opinions are coming from.

I grew up in a minority white neighborhood.

In Utah.

Hopefully you get what I'm saying. If not, let me explain it. First, the obvious, my family was poor. But that's not what I'm hoping you understand, because that is the obvious part. I grew up with people who knew what "white privilege" was, and it wasn't us white kids who knew, it was the other kids. We were all poor. We all had disadvantages. All of us. But as you know, some of us were going to have a harder time shaking those disadvantages.

I'm doing pretty well. Not as well as you. But I'm happy I was able to escape the situation I grew up in.

My skin color helped me. It 100% did. ****, my last name helped me. I'm not sure which helped more. I do know I could have had the same name but a different skin color and my name wouldn't have helped me at all.

But what I want to tell you, dalamon, is that I did not grow up in "privilege" but I do know that I had privilege. But when you tell people, like me, that we have privilege they consider their lot in life, and they think of the people they've seen who were far more privileged than they were and they call BS on your assertion. They know that there are others far, far more privileged than they have ever been. So your message falls flat. They don't hear it. They see the people who have REAL (in their mind) privilege. And they dismiss you as someone who has no idea who they are or where they've been. And they are not wrong in that. You underestimate the experience of disadvantaged white people. ****, you seem often to pretty much dismiss it.

We should be on the same team. But you want to tell me (us) how privileged we are and kick us out of the discussion. You should be inviting us to the table. We're your friends. We have advantages you don't, but we also share some of the same disadvantages. And we can fight together, first to end the racial inequality, and second to end the class inequality.

If you don't want our friendship just keep doing what you're doing. If you do, we are here. We're your friends. Just extend your hand and we'll take it.
Click to expand...

understand that I am not saying the things that you think i'm saying (and Archie, this applies to you too). go back, and re-read my posts. and, unlike colton, you're engaging with more nuance here, so here's my more thorough response.

colton is saying that he is ticked off by the term white privilege because (i'm paraphrasing, and assuming) that the assumption is by saying he possesses white privilege, I say by default he is privileged and the successes he's had in his life have been because of his privilege.

my contention is simple-- the term white privilege is an extremely important term. It is a term that defines the privilege one receives in life for being born with an identity that north american society perceives as white. All of you (I'm very sure) are familiar with this definition. Now, the response here is "I hear you, but still, that term makes me feel uncomfortable." My response is-- I don't give a ****. I'm sorry, white privilege is an important term. Male privilege is an important term. These social constructs confer advantages, and I'm very suspicious of anyone who tries to minimize the usage of these terms in public discourse. It's reminds me of colton's old argument of being fine with gay people getting the legal rights of marriage, but not wanting their union to be called "a marriage."-- words mattered for him at that time, and similarly words matter to those who don't possess white privilege, and want to be able to discuss how it manifests. No one is saying you didn't overcome immense material disadvantages to make it to where you are, BP-- I'm just saying that, frankly, if you were female and if you were black, your chances of accomplishing whatever you have (to this point) would be lower. It seems like you agree-- so it's time that we're comfortable with pointing out the privileges we possess, because doing this is what ends up helping those who don't possess privileges in our society. We need to be mature, secure, and call a spade a spade. No one is saying to start hating yourself-- however I think you should feel feelings of shame if you're not coming to terms with the fact that social privileges exist, and that for some of them, you've been the beneficiary. That's shameful because what you're doing is you're participating in the erasure of these very real phenomena-- and when we erase, we never address social realties that are some of the biggest shames of mankind here on the North American continent.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Well dalamon up above for one (was that in this thread?). I've seen such comments on social media more than a little.
Click to expand...

feel free to quote what I said, and explicitly describe what it was in those words that you felt was inappropriate.
 
dalamon said:
understand that I am not saying the things that you think i'm saying (and Archie, this applies to you too). go back, and re-read my posts. and, unlike colton, you're engaging with more nuance here, so here's my more thorough response.

colton is saying that he is ticked off by the term white privilege because (i'm paraphrasing, and assuming) that the assumption is by saying he possesses white privilege, I say by default he is privileged and the successes he's had in his life have been because of his privilege.

my contention is simple-- the term white privilege is an extremely important term. It is a term that defines the privilege one receives in life for being born with an identity that north american society perceives as white. All of you (I'm very sure) are familiar with this definition. Now, the response here is "I hear you, but still, that term makes me feel uncomfortable." My response is-- I don't give a ****. I'm sorry, white privilege is an important term. Male privilege is an important term. These social constructs confer advantages, and I'm very suspicious of anyone who tries to minimize the usage of these terms in public discourse. It's reminds me of colton's old argument of being fine with gay people getting the legal rights of marriage, but not wanting their union to be called "a marriage."-- words mattered for him at that time, and similarly words matter to those who don't possess white privilege, and want to be able to discuss how it manifests. No one is saying you didn't overcome immense material disadvantages to make it to where you are, BP-- I'm just saying that, frankly, if you were female and if you were black, your chances of accomplishing whatever you have (to this point) would be lower. It seems like you agree-- so it's time that we're comfortable with pointing out the privileges we possess, because doing this is what ends up helping those who don't possess privileges in our society. We need to be mature, secure, and call a spade a spade. No one is saying to start hating yourself-- however I think you should feel feelings of shame if you're not coming to terms with the fact that social privileges exist, and that for some of them, you've been the beneficiary. That's shameful because what you're doing is you're participating in the erasure of these very real phenomena-- and when we erase, we never address social realties that are some of the biggest shames of mankind here on the North American continent.
Click to expand...
@dalamon

This was a good post. Thanks for clarifying and sharing your thoughts.
 
One Brow said:
Whom do you see as making direct calls for feeling guilty? Any particular speeches?
Click to expand...
Dalamon literally said, "making white people feel guilty is the right goal because white people are the ones who created and maintain white privilege— without shaming, change cannot occur". Just a few posts ago.
 
dalamon said:
colton is saying that he is ticked off by the term white privilege because (i'm paraphrasing, and assuming) that the assumption is by saying he possesses white privilege, I say by default he is privileged and the successes he's had in his life have been because of his privilege.
Click to expand...

No, that's not at all why I said I disliked the term.
 
ok, so I moved a bunch of posts from the Pet Peeve thread because they seemed very appropriate to the discussion that had been underway here

I think the point about awareness being a helpful feeling but guilt and shame not being helpful is a good point - - those who hear/read the term "privilege" and think it means they should feel guilty or be ashamed of their privilege are not likely to be very receptive to a discussion on the subject - - and some of those who apply the term to others do so in a pejorative manner - - there are some "social justice warrior" types who have little interest in an open dialogue on the subject but just want to stir the pot
 
colton said:
No, that's not at all why I said I disliked the term.
Click to expand...

That would be a much better explanation than your bizarre explanation of “it sets the standard of experience for the white person instead of...” — the only thing that tautological explanation does is the obfuscating of the very real existence white privilege. To me, that’s worthy of shame. One Brow can disagree, I personally don’t care.
 
dalamon said:
That would be a much better explanation than your bizarre explanation of “it sets the standard of experience for the white person instead of...” — the only thing that tautological explanation does is the obfuscating of the very real existence white privilege. To me, that’s worthy of shame. One Brow can disagree, I personally don’t care.
Click to expand...

When you are shaming a single person for denying/distorting the concept of white privilege, or causing them to feel guilt over it, you have my support for that, even if you don't care.
 
colton said:
Dalamon literally said, "making white people feel guilty is the right goal because white people are the ones who created and maintain white privilege— without shaming, change cannot occur". Just a few posts ago.
Click to expand...

I like dalamon, but to my knowledge he's not a leader in the civil rights movement. Random people on the internet call for all sorts of things.
 
dalamon said:
understand that I am not saying the things that you think i'm saying (and Archie, this applies to you too). go back, and re-read my posts. and, unlike colton, you're engaging with more nuance here, so here's my more thorough response.

colton is saying that he is ticked off by the term white privilege because (i'm paraphrasing, and assuming) that the assumption is by saying he possesses white privilege, I say by default he is privileged and the successes he's had in his life have been because of his privilege.
Click to expand...
It looks to me like colton is the one engaging with nuance and you are coming in with a club and helmet.
You either missed or dismissed his point before understanding what he was saying.

I also completely disagree with the notion that shaming is the right thing to do. Are you also ok with fat shaming, race shaming for other races, shaming autistic kids into being better, shaming those with health issues into getting better? When is shaming the right thing to do, and when is it not and who decides where the line is between shaming is good and shaming is bad? Is it all good?
Is your goal to bring people together and actually fix things at the root level, or to divide more?

I see the notion of "shaming whites is good" as not nuanced, or thought through. I see it more as an angry reaction, or retaliation/revenge reaction. I get it and understand it's roots, but don't see it leading to something better in any scenario.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top