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Will You Accept the Findings of the Muller Probe?

Will You Accept the Findings of the Muller Probe?

  • Total voters
    29
NPC D4617 said:
There is a difference between defending yourself with words and actually taking action to prohibit free speech or press. I dont see Trump putting Media out of business or silencing them. He has the right to free speech too, does he not? Notice how its his speech you want to stop? Meanwhile, big tech is taking action to stop free speech, and I notice you and everyone else here is curiously absent in defending free speech when it comes to others free speech you dont like.
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Well, to myself, Alex Jones is right up there with yelling fire in a crowded theater. And Trump isn't just another citizen. He's the president. At his rallies he had the media separated in cages, and, at virtually every rally, he directs his crowd to react in anger toward the members of the media that are present. I regard a free press, the so-called 4th estate, as one of the central institutions of our democracy. They have their problems, in terms of how the public perceives them, the low regard in which they are held by many. But it's also authoritarianism 101 to regard a free press as the enemy. But, you're right, he has not closed anybody down. He has not jailed reporters wholesale. Rather it's the cumulative effect of demonizing our free press that does concern me. Every president has had problems with adversarial press, but Trump's and the Right's creation of fake news and alternative facts concerns me as well.
 
silesian said:
You presented it like it was something that people were completely unaware of and shocking "....you boys even know the half of it. No, on the contrary, you're babes in the woods about all this..." when it is widely understood and consistent with the arc of Chinese history.
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I was referring to the use of modern technology by the Chinese, not the arc of Chinese history. Babe said that in 10 years, what we see in China, we would see in the United States, leading me to believe he was likely not that aware of the "social credit" initiative. But, I was probably also being unfairly sarcastic toward babe and NPC, and I can also see now where you would interpret it the way you did. At the same time, I suspect not that many Americans in general are aware of what the Chinese government is attempting to put in place. Likewise with the placement of some 1 million Uighur Muslims in "re-education camps". I don't think many Americans are all that aware of that, either.
 
silesian said:
The mental model is controlling the masses. That is the common thread. Chinese have always used the latest technology to do so. If the modern issues float your boat, I get it, it is an interesting topic. Perhaps even more interesting when understanding the historical context.
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Sure, I understand, and agree.
 
silesian said:
Do you really want to quibble about the semantic difference between "old news" and "history"? Or do you want to discuss something nontrivial and substantive?
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No, I just didn't understand where you were coming from, until you focused on the fact that you felt I was introducing Chinese efforts at totalitarianism as if it was something nobody had ever heard of, at which point I understood it was just a misunderstanding.
 
NPC D4617 said:
He has the right to free speech too, does he not? Notice how its his speech you want to stop?
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Yes, I notice, so let's look at one of his favorite sayings, the press is "the enemy of the people".

A free press has long been one of a democracy's principle vehicles for speaking truth to power.

And a president's words would be expected to carry more weight, on topics pertaining to the functioning of our democracy and government, by virtue of being chief executive of the federal government. They may not be weighty intrinsically, but by virtue of who he is, his words will carry weight.

Is it right, given those two premises, for a president to turn the phrase the news media is "the enemy of the people" into a mantra, by virtue of stating it repetitively? If I defended his right to say it, could I nonetheless say it's irresponsible for him to say it? Yes, my free speech gives me the right to call him irresponsible in this case. And, if it's irresponsible, given the function of a free press to speak truth to power in a democracy, then should he be saying it, to the point of being a mantra?

I believe he does damage to one of our most important democratic institutions by both saying it in the first place, and turning it into a political mantra in the second place. The behavior of his rally attendees toward the press in attendance at those rallies, would suggest they believe the press is their enemy. He did not create that belief, but he promotes it, and his words carry more weight then yours or mine.

So, yeah, it is his speech I want to stop. Because it's irresponsible to say it, and damaging to a democratic institution by saying it over and over, not because he does not have the freedom to say it.
 
silesian said:
Now you are getting a bit crazy. You think if a husband murders his wife, the arrest is politically driven? Dude robs a bank, ditto? Embezzles from his company? Step back from the edge, you are taking this a bit far.
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The context of this discussion is political investigations. We are not investigating Hillary or Obama or Biden or McConnell or a lot of others because they are essentially "owned". But Trump we investigate the hell outta because he thinks he can be Pres without kissing the ring of the Honchos.
 
Catchall said:
From what I understand --

a) Russian intelligence made efforts to interfere with the 2016 election, including placing propaganda on social media sites and hacking Democratic computers. Some hacked emails were released to wikileaks and were published. However, this was not initiated by Trump or his campaign, nor did the campaign conspire or collude for it to happen. Hence the underlying criminality of "collusion" was shown to be a false allegation.
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I wish, just occasionally, conservatives would not conflate the notions of "collusion", which clearly did happen and is not illegal, with "conspiracy", which is illegal. When the Trump team got advance word of the Wikileaks dump, it was collusion. When Trump Jr. took the Trump tower meeting with a Russian operative, it was collusion (and to my understanding, only not illegal because this was an occasion knowledge of the law was needed for an act to be illegal).

Catchall said:
c) Now, here's the next step.... The FBI colluded with Trump's political opponents to produce the original Trump dossier,
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If you mean the Steele dossier, that was produced well before the FBI got involved, as the very article you quoted explained.
 
NPC D4617 said:
Did you see facebook make rules dictating what speech you can have if its about Alex Jones, Paul Joseph Watson, louis Farrakhan, etc..?
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You want the government to force Facebook to keep people on its platform, despite what Facebook wants? Why do you support tyranny and hate capitalism?

NPC D4617 said:
Have you noticed the left is in bed with big tech and silencing people on the right?
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HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Big tech is much more aligned with right-leaning libertarians that with the left.
 
If republicans want a social media platform free from decency and standards so that Nazis can spout off about anything they want, why don’t they pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and create one?

Why ask the government to force Facebook and Twitter to repeal their own rules and force them to accept Nazi rhetoric?

If republicans think that there’s really a market for Nazis, create your own social media platforms. If you folks think that there are plenty who want to listen to the paranoid and racist rants of Alex Jones, Milo, Bannon, and Spencer, then it’ll be successful. Hell, maybe you’ll even put Facebook and twitter out of business. How much #owninthelibs would that he like to put Facebook and twitter out of business with your Nazibook?
 
Red said:
I'm not sure why you brought up the Chinese Cultural Revolution in the first place. That's not even old news. It isn't news at all. It's history. And where exactly did I say Chinese totalitarianism was itself news??

The news is the creation of a "social credits" system under the surveillance of modern technology. My understanding is this initiative began in 2014, with nation wide implementation planned for 2020, if that's possible. I find this totalitarianism supported by modern technology fascinating. Seems to me it was not really possible, to such a degree, before now.

This is 2019. I'm not interested in the Cultural Revolution as predecessor. I did, and do, find it interesting that some Chinese citizens are saying the social credits system is a good thing, but if I were a citizen of China, and in front of a camera, I would not say it's a bad thing. At any rate, the thing you refer to as "all that has changed" is is the very thing I find of great interest. So, to each his own I would say.
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I'm with you on this one Red. It's both fascinating and terrifying. I'm not sure what point the person you are responding to is trying to make. Is he trying to say that China has always wanted to control their population so the only thing that has changed is that now they have the tools to accomplish their goals? I'd say that's a pretty big deal.
 
silesian said:
The mental model is controlling the masses. That is the common thread. Chinese have always used the latest technology to do so. If the modern issues float your boat, I get it, it is an interesting topic. Perhaps even more interesting when understanding the historical context.
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Is this really the rabbit hole you want to go down? Did you watch the videos Red posted? This is news.
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
I'm with you on this one Red. It's both fascinating and terrifying. I'm not sure what point the person you are responding to is trying to make. Is he trying to say that China has always wanted to control their population so the only thing that has changed is that now they have the tools to accomplish their goals? I'd say that's a pretty big deal.
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No, the manner in which I originally introduced the business about Chinese "social credit" initiative was worded in a way that might cause misinterpretation, which I understood might happen, once silesian pointed it out to me. So, it was a simple misunderstanding, no more. And yes, I think it is a big deal that modern tech may now serve to better accomplish control of its citizens by the Chinese. We are not free of problems, but there are far worse places to live and regimes to live under.
 
Red said:
Yes, I notice, so let's look at one of his favorite sayings, the press is "the enemy of the people".

A free press has long been one of a democracy's principle vehicles for speaking truth to power.

And a president's words would be expected to carry more weight, on topics pertaining to the functioning of our democracy and government, by virtue of being chief executive of the federal government. They may not be weighty intrinsically, but by virtue of who he is, his words will carry weight.

Is it right, given those two premises, for a president to turn the phrase the news media is "the enemy of the people" into a mantra, by virtue of stating it repetitively? If I defended his right to say it, could I nonetheless say it's irresponsible for him to say it? Yes, my free speech gives me the right to call him irresponsible in this case. And, if it's irresponsible, given the function of a free press to speak truth to power in a democracy, then should he be saying it, to the point of being a mantra?

I believe he does damage to one of our most important democratic institutions by both saying it in the first place, and turning it into a political mantra in the second place. The behavior of his rally attendees toward the press in attendance at those rallies, would suggest they believe the press is their enemy. He did not create that belief, but he promotes it, and his words carry more weight then yours or mine.

So, yeah, it is his speech I want to stop. Because it's irresponsible to say it, and damaging to a democratic institution by saying it over and over, not because he does not have the freedom to say it.
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Imagine that the press was having some sort of contest to twist every one of your statements into the worst possible interperetation. Imagine that they were making up evidence to claim that you were a criminal. Imagine that large portions of the press were actively working to undermine you. That is what is happening to Trump (at least from his perspective). Many (notice that I did not say "all") of the breathless claims the press has been making over the last 2.5 years have been proven false. So how would you feel about the press if you were someone they had been telling these sorts of untruths about over all this time? I know I would not enjoy being lied about in that way.

Unfortunately all of this might be an unavoidable pitfall of social media and 24/7 news (which are both here to stay).
 
One Brow said:
I wish, just occasionally, conservatives would not conflate the notions of "collusion", which clearly did happen and is not illegal, with "conspiracy", which is illegal. When the Trump team got advance word of the Wikileaks dump, it was collusion. When Trump Jr. took the Trump tower meeting with a Russian operative, it was collusion (and to my understanding, only not illegal because this was an occasion knowledge of the law was needed for an act to be illegal).



If you mean the Steele dossier, that was produced well before the FBI got involved, as the very article you quoted explained.
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The allegation is that the Steele dossier was used as evidence to obtain a FISA warrant to spy on the Trump campaign. Your clarification that it was produced before the FBI got involved does the opposite of refuting that post you are responding to.

And it's pretty funny to me that you are now accusing conservatives of turning "collusion" into some sort of naughty word. Have you somehow missed the way that the anti-Trump crowd has been throwing that word around for the last 2.5 years?
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
The allegation is that the Steele dossier was used as evidence to obtain a FISA warrant to spy on the Trump campaign. Your clarification that it was produced before the FBI got involved does the opposite of refuting that post you are responding to.
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To quote the post to which I responded, with important words in bold, "The FBI colluded with Trump's political opponents to produce the original Trump dossier,...".

Last I heard, parts of the Steele dossier were part of the evidence to get the warrant on Page. Wow, what an accusation.

Joe Bagadonuts said:
And it's pretty funny to me that you are now accusing conservatives of turning "collusion" into some sort of naughty word. Have you somehow missed the way that the anti-Trump crowd has been throwing that word around for the last 2.5 years?
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Not at all. Are all naughty things criminal?
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
Imagine that the press was having some sort of contest to twist every one of your statements into the worst possible interperetation.
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Out of my 56 years, I have only see the press treat a sitting President that way for about 56 of them.

Joe Bagadonuts said:
Imagine that they were making up evidence to claim that you were a criminal.
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Like claiming that you lied about where you were born and so could not be President of the US?

Joe Bagadonuts said:
Imagine that large portions of the press were actively working to undermine you.
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Again, 56 out of 56.

Joe Bagadonuts said:
That is what is happening to Trump (at least from his perspective).
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Well, he is the POTUS.
 
Joe Bagadonuts said:
Imagine that the press was having some sort of contest to twist every one of your statements into the worst possible interperetation. Imagine that they were making up evidence to claim that you were a criminal. Imagine that large portions of the press were actively working to undermine you. That is what is happening to Trump (at least from his perspective). Many (notice that I did not say "all") of the breathless claims the press has been making over the last 2.5 years have been proven false. So how would you feel about the press if you were someone they had been telling these sorts of untruths about over all this time? I know I would not enjoy being lied about in that way.

Unfortunately all of this might be an unavoidable pitfall of social media and 24/7 news (which are both here to stay).
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Sorry, man, another long reply. I believe the lies are originating from Trump's side of the equation. Of course I would not like what you are describing, and I have considered that, and mentioned as much earlier in this thread, as being the reason he's been so bent out of shape by the Mueller investigation and press feeding frenzy at times. But, this is Trump, and I don't believe him for one second.

First, a much more honest and direct answer to the questions you asked me earlier in this thread, regarding spying, etc., would have been that no, I am not concerned with any of the points you mentioned, and in fact I have not followed closely the alternative history or alternative interpretation offered by the Deep State hypothesis. It would have been far better to simply say that, rather then let myself be triggered by a presentation of view points associated with that narrative. I don't mind being labeled biased over this. I have been convinced long since that the Trump/Fox News/Deep State/ Dems-attempted-a-coup narrative is all a lie. And I won't waste my time on it as a result. They have spun several conspiracy theories since the 2016 campaign. I don't expect them to ever stop.

I assume, Trump, Fox News and other Trump-friendly sites, and the GOP in general are running with that narrative to simply provide cover. I still believe Trump feared something where the Mueller investigation was concerned, or he would not have obstructed justice so many times. Sure, it's distracting, but if you really are innocent, just hands off and wait for the findings.

Follow the money. There will be Russian connections, and Trump is hiding that fact. I do believe he is compromised, and if we can get those financial investigations off the ground, we'll find that out. IMO.

This alternative narrative all started with the Nunes Memo. As this Washington Post article points, out, the Deep State narrative launched in part by the Nunes Memo has grown and been increasingly adopted by the entire GOP. Please understand that, to me, this is a construct, a lie, a false narrative designed to protect Trump, and its embrace now by the GOP can be traced to the finding of no conspiracy by Mueller (As Colton has pointed out a couple of times, the Post can be read in incognito mode using chrome browser):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...sing-embrace-trumps-russia-conspiracy-theory/

Now, once again, Trump is focusing on the "coup narrative" in his tweets today:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tru...ims-coup-attempt-fbi-lawyer/story?id=63001147

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/05/trump-quotes-right-wing-commentator-in-accusing-democrats-of-waging-american-coup

And, another Post opinion piece indicating that Trump is already getting set to use the power of the federal government against the eventual Democratic nominee in 2020:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...et-use-government-destroy-democratic-nominee/

Now, many conservative lawyers are getting on Trump's case for his abuse of power. Over 700 ex prosecutors from GOP and Democratic administrations have signed on to the statement saying they would charge Trump with instruction, based on the Mueller report:

https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-republican-lawyers-20190512-story.html
 
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Joe Bagadonuts said:
Is this really the rabbit hole you want to go down? Did you watch the videos Red posted? This is news.
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Joe, it was just a misunderstanding, we resolved it. Plus, I agree with silesian. China's "social credit" system is best understood in the Chinese historical context of thought control.
 
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