Which New Guy Will Have the Biggest Impact?
- Thread starter kabenac
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//r00t 4 Jazz
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Like every one has said if it isn't Gay then it could be a problem for the Jazz.
I also thought Paschall as a few of you if he had some sort of break out season might be the most helpful.
But you know now that I'm thinking about it (it wont happen but just what if) if it was Whiteside that would mean it is because he is killing it and giving Rudy a few extra minutes to rest. Which to me might be the most impactful on a few levels, as mentioned a more rested Rudy would be a more productive Rudy, Whiteside dominating on the bench would give the Jazz 48min of strong defense and lastly he could/might interest other teams in trading for him which would would allow the Jazz to use a FA signing to gain assets which they are short on.
I also thought Paschall as a few of you if he had some sort of break out season might be the most helpful.
But you know now that I'm thinking about it (it wont happen but just what if) if it was Whiteside that would mean it is because he is killing it and giving Rudy a few extra minutes to rest. Which to me might be the most impactful on a few levels, as mentioned a more rested Rudy would be a more productive Rudy, Whiteside dominating on the bench would give the Jazz 48min of strong defense and lastly he could/might interest other teams in trading for him which would would allow the Jazz to use a FA signing to gain assets which they are short on.
I'd have a hard time voting on this. The bottom line is that I think the three of Gay, Whiteside, and Butler will all be impact players. That's not to say that they'll all be in regular rotation and getting regular minutes (looking at Butler here), but that the three of them will all provide needed value and will contribute to our team this year. Whiteside and Gay are obviously going to be higher than Butler (in my mind) and I think it's hard to choose between the two because their roles will be so different, but I think the impact of Whiteside overall can be a lot larger though it may not be as featured as Gay because you will see Gay playing in a lot of situations such as the end of games (not necessarily regularly or all the time, but Whiteside's role will look smaller because during any crucial stretch, it will be Gobert on the floor). Butler is much farther down than both of those.
Whiteside:
I think this is a very, very underrated move. For anyone that's followed my posts for the past 4 years or so, I have advocated (even when we had Favors the first time) that we needed to roll with Udoh as the primary backup. To a degree, this has been heresy because of how favorably (no pun intended) Favors has been viewed amongst the fan base. Favors isn't and hasn't been the kind of rim protector that we've assumed, but because he does everything else all around good, I think that's inflated our expectation to what he did as a rim protector. During his first stint, we played him at the 4 to start and it allowed Rudy to do more because there was backup at the rim and for cleaning up the glass. Favors provided good rim protection in those situations and as a 4 is a good rim protector. He still spent a large majority of his time effectively being the backup, but I think there were a number of things that obscured the rim protection idea. One is that our team had been known as underdogs and having to be scrappy before we flipped everything around and (literally publicly) said Rudy was going to carry the load defensively. Udoh is an elite defender, and I think people felt elevating Udoh is a Favors slight, the idea that Udoh was elite defensively was poopooed and we emphasized a lot of his other (very real) deficiencies. Being able to play Udoh behind Gobert allows you to do the things you really need done with Gobert on the floor. It's true that he gives you nowhere close to what you would want or need on offense and he also is a huge drop off on the glass. Udoh was specifically what we needed but because Favors was better overall this significantly overshadowed everything and our need went largely unmet. I was hopeful for Ed Davis because I thought he could provide what we needed from Favors (rebounding). That failed miserably, but I still would have rather had Udoh. Then we swung completely the other way and had Tony Bradley play center, which was good that it highlighted the importance of defense from that spot, but was bad because now it gave us the idea that we didn't need a very specific set of skills, but that we could just run it back with Favors. So we brought back Favors and it didn't work out as great. It wasn't bad, but now people are recognizing that we need something specific from that spot that the nostalgia couldn't fill. Favors is absolutely everything you would want in a professional and is fairly ideal for everything off-the-court. But bringing back Favors was a lot like Afghanistan -- perhaps the intentions were good and we had higher hopes, but eventually the pull out is bad and we just should have never gone there in the first place.
When we drafted Udoka, I was okay with this because I assumed it meant we were running in that direction. He was a guy who could protect the paint and played 4 years in college, so the hope was that perhaps he could contribute and we could sign some other minimum vet, but that obviously changed when we signed Favors. My ideal for this offseason would have been Dwight Howard. He's a guy who's absolutely horrible for building around as your key guy (from a personality standpoint) and I think time obviously has highlighted that, but I think it stigmatized him that those issues are no longer relevant when you're bringing him in as a role player, and I think he's been significantly undervalued. The other ideal would be bringing in Udoh. Whiteside was honestly not at all on my radar, mostly because I didn't think he'd sign here nor would we pursue him. But I think he's a very, very great value move. Hell, even if it wasn't a value move it's just a good move in general. For any of his weaknesses, to be able to bring in a guy who is this type of player is exactly what we need in the non-Rudy minutes, and I think with Quin knowing how to use Rudy that he can maximize Whiteside's talents while also getting him more disciplined on his deficiencies. This allows us to (finally) play whole games where we have the guy coming in for Rudy doing the things he needs to. I'm skeptical that he's as strong of an actual defender as Udoh, but what he lacks there he makes up for with significantly better rebounding abilities and drastically improved offensive skills relative to Udoh. But, more importantly, I think Whiteside can do all those things that everyone loved about Favors that got highlighted because it was contrasted against Rudy (having better hands and more offensive capabilities) while also doing enough of the Rudy things. It's a bit like the best of both worlds, and I'm way more optimistic on this signing than many only because I've been calling for us to have the same type of player since forever and we kept getting distracted and not focusing on what the real need is from that backup 5 spot. This is a guy who gives us those needs at the backup while also bringing a lot of other abilities with rebounding and offense.
Gay:
He'll be the obvious guy that on the surface will get recognized as the biggest addition. My ideal guy I've wanted forever is OPJ, who burned us, but I didn't think OPJ would even be in our price range, and if you told me we'd walk out of the summer with Gay, I'd have been pretty happy (am pretty happy). It may just be the idea of getting OPJ that I'd be in love with more than what it would actually translate to. Who knows if he'll be healthy. I love his three point shot because I think that would have fit in perfect while being a good team defender to throw in. But Gay has a handful of things he's better than. His rebounding I think will be a huge addition. I don't have any tl;dr on him because it's obvious.
Butler:
I think there's a real role here available. I'm not talking about a large one, but we've had a need for a backup PG who can play on-and-off ball that we've covered by playing Donovan and Ingles as the backups so as to appear like there isn't a need there. But that need is there. Of the numerous different strategies of the off-season, I could have seen some value in bringing in a guy like Patty Mills because it allows you more freedom in taking the pressure off some other guys. I think anyone who watched the playoffs would agree that, despite Mitchell having a strong offensive showing, that having an additional ball handler there to take pressure off who could also hit the three would be a huge boon. So the prototype of what we need for that position that gets opened up by not relying so heavily on Don and Ingles to fill the void is a guy in the mold of a Patty Mills, which I believe Butler could do. He's obviously not going to come in and be Patty Mills, but a guy like that would be a huge luxury. We're really talking like someone playing a Super-Neto role here, and I think this should be a good fit if he plays some passable defense and is a threat to hit open threes, in addition to being able to handle the ball. I don't see him as getting regular, every night minutes, but a role for sure. Any injury vacuum with Don, Mike, Joe, or Jordan, and he fills that probably relatively competently and allows us to weather those storms without holding our breath.
Paschall:
I don't expect him to be in the rotation. There's an advantage here that he's actually has some experience playing NBA minutes and he's a guy that, if needed or called upon, can give you some NBA minutes. That couldn't be said with our deep bench previously. It'd be nice if Quin has the luxury (and utilizes it) where we can start pulling guys before the 1:00 minute mark when we're up 30. If we can start shaving some minute totals off some guys in unnecessary playing time where the end-of-bench can be relied on somewhat more, then I think that provides some pretty good value.
Whiteside:
I think this is a very, very underrated move. For anyone that's followed my posts for the past 4 years or so, I have advocated (even when we had Favors the first time) that we needed to roll with Udoh as the primary backup. To a degree, this has been heresy because of how favorably (no pun intended) Favors has been viewed amongst the fan base. Favors isn't and hasn't been the kind of rim protector that we've assumed, but because he does everything else all around good, I think that's inflated our expectation to what he did as a rim protector. During his first stint, we played him at the 4 to start and it allowed Rudy to do more because there was backup at the rim and for cleaning up the glass. Favors provided good rim protection in those situations and as a 4 is a good rim protector. He still spent a large majority of his time effectively being the backup, but I think there were a number of things that obscured the rim protection idea. One is that our team had been known as underdogs and having to be scrappy before we flipped everything around and (literally publicly) said Rudy was going to carry the load defensively. Udoh is an elite defender, and I think people felt elevating Udoh is a Favors slight, the idea that Udoh was elite defensively was poopooed and we emphasized a lot of his other (very real) deficiencies. Being able to play Udoh behind Gobert allows you to do the things you really need done with Gobert on the floor. It's true that he gives you nowhere close to what you would want or need on offense and he also is a huge drop off on the glass. Udoh was specifically what we needed but because Favors was better overall this significantly overshadowed everything and our need went largely unmet. I was hopeful for Ed Davis because I thought he could provide what we needed from Favors (rebounding). That failed miserably, but I still would have rather had Udoh. Then we swung completely the other way and had Tony Bradley play center, which was good that it highlighted the importance of defense from that spot, but was bad because now it gave us the idea that we didn't need a very specific set of skills, but that we could just run it back with Favors. So we brought back Favors and it didn't work out as great. It wasn't bad, but now people are recognizing that we need something specific from that spot that the nostalgia couldn't fill. Favors is absolutely everything you would want in a professional and is fairly ideal for everything off-the-court. But bringing back Favors was a lot like Afghanistan -- perhaps the intentions were good and we had higher hopes, but eventually the pull out is bad and we just should have never gone there in the first place.
When we drafted Udoka, I was okay with this because I assumed it meant we were running in that direction. He was a guy who could protect the paint and played 4 years in college, so the hope was that perhaps he could contribute and we could sign some other minimum vet, but that obviously changed when we signed Favors. My ideal for this offseason would have been Dwight Howard. He's a guy who's absolutely horrible for building around as your key guy (from a personality standpoint) and I think time obviously has highlighted that, but I think it stigmatized him that those issues are no longer relevant when you're bringing him in as a role player, and I think he's been significantly undervalued. The other ideal would be bringing in Udoh. Whiteside was honestly not at all on my radar, mostly because I didn't think he'd sign here nor would we pursue him. But I think he's a very, very great value move. Hell, even if it wasn't a value move it's just a good move in general. For any of his weaknesses, to be able to bring in a guy who is this type of player is exactly what we need in the non-Rudy minutes, and I think with Quin knowing how to use Rudy that he can maximize Whiteside's talents while also getting him more disciplined on his deficiencies. This allows us to (finally) play whole games where we have the guy coming in for Rudy doing the things he needs to. I'm skeptical that he's as strong of an actual defender as Udoh, but what he lacks there he makes up for with significantly better rebounding abilities and drastically improved offensive skills relative to Udoh. But, more importantly, I think Whiteside can do all those things that everyone loved about Favors that got highlighted because it was contrasted against Rudy (having better hands and more offensive capabilities) while also doing enough of the Rudy things. It's a bit like the best of both worlds, and I'm way more optimistic on this signing than many only because I've been calling for us to have the same type of player since forever and we kept getting distracted and not focusing on what the real need is from that backup 5 spot. This is a guy who gives us those needs at the backup while also bringing a lot of other abilities with rebounding and offense.
Gay:
He'll be the obvious guy that on the surface will get recognized as the biggest addition. My ideal guy I've wanted forever is OPJ, who burned us, but I didn't think OPJ would even be in our price range, and if you told me we'd walk out of the summer with Gay, I'd have been pretty happy (am pretty happy). It may just be the idea of getting OPJ that I'd be in love with more than what it would actually translate to. Who knows if he'll be healthy. I love his three point shot because I think that would have fit in perfect while being a good team defender to throw in. But Gay has a handful of things he's better than. His rebounding I think will be a huge addition. I don't have any tl;dr on him because it's obvious.
Butler:
I think there's a real role here available. I'm not talking about a large one, but we've had a need for a backup PG who can play on-and-off ball that we've covered by playing Donovan and Ingles as the backups so as to appear like there isn't a need there. But that need is there. Of the numerous different strategies of the off-season, I could have seen some value in bringing in a guy like Patty Mills because it allows you more freedom in taking the pressure off some other guys. I think anyone who watched the playoffs would agree that, despite Mitchell having a strong offensive showing, that having an additional ball handler there to take pressure off who could also hit the three would be a huge boon. So the prototype of what we need for that position that gets opened up by not relying so heavily on Don and Ingles to fill the void is a guy in the mold of a Patty Mills, which I believe Butler could do. He's obviously not going to come in and be Patty Mills, but a guy like that would be a huge luxury. We're really talking like someone playing a Super-Neto role here, and I think this should be a good fit if he plays some passable defense and is a threat to hit open threes, in addition to being able to handle the ball. I don't see him as getting regular, every night minutes, but a role for sure. Any injury vacuum with Don, Mike, Joe, or Jordan, and he fills that probably relatively competently and allows us to weather those storms without holding our breath.
Paschall:
I don't expect him to be in the rotation. There's an advantage here that he's actually has some experience playing NBA minutes and he's a guy that, if needed or called upon, can give you some NBA minutes. That couldn't be said with our deep bench previously. It'd be nice if Quin has the luxury (and utilizes it) where we can start pulling guys before the 1:00 minute mark when we're up 30. If we can start shaving some minute totals off some guys in unnecessary playing time where the end-of-bench can be relied on somewhat more, then I think that provides some pretty good value.
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Handlogten's Heros
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Its sad that you are too dug in on OP Jr. to open up your heart for some Gay Love.
Handlogten's Heros
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For reals though... Whiteside may end up being so much better than people realize. My vote is strongly with Rudy Gay. I think he finds 20 minutes a night and have no reason to believe he won't be healthy. He's older but was a great, great athlete and is skilled. His body is basically what you'd draw up for the ideal wing but he's shown ability to do other things as his career has progressed. I'm excited to see what he does.
I love Butler... i think he only gets in about 30-40 games this year outside of garbage time... unless we have a big injury to one of the aforementioned guys. I'd feel better if he had played summer league. I know it isn't like the end of the world but taking those first few doses of NBA athletes and NBA learning early would have been really beneficial. If he starts slow it turns into him being a "disappointment" pretty quickly. If he can't get on the floor because we are really healthy (a good thing obvi) then it gets late early for him. He needs like a 10 game stint where he gets 15-20 minutes a night in the first third of the season or I think he falls too far behind to help us in the playoffs... and if it doesn't look like he will help us in the playoffs he could get mothballed late in the season and we just play Mike, Don, Joe, Jordan more minutes depending on injury. He needs a good start and is already a little behind imo... for this year. Not saying that is what should happen just that I could see it happen.
Lol I think Gay is probably better when it’s all said and done. My head says that. My heart was on OPJ for a long time and he burned us. Gay will be good.
Handlogten's Heros
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I am much happier we got Gay. I am not a doctor but I think OPJ is broken. I wouldn't have wanted to invest a 3 year deal at Rudy Gay money on OPJ. He just needs to be healthy at the right time... but I don't trust our luck there.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
Wouldn’t be surprised if Paschall does well here over time. You know Mitchell will encourage him to be aggressive in games and practices. With Mitchell his best friend, you know there’s already going to be some comfort here as a new guy.
I voted for Whiteside because it's a gut feeling - he's going to look good with the 2nd unit and I think he'll work hard to try and get more minutes from Rudy and if anything that's going to elevate Rudy's game as well. Even at 15 minutes a game he's going to pull down 7 boards a game and take out the trash a few times. I think he'll average close to double figures if he gets 15 minutes a game.
Though having Gay means Bogie is more expendable and if a trade makes sense (like to get a decent SF who is a great defender) we can then plug Gay into the starting lineup and we're still rolling along. He's clearly a better rebounder and defender than Bogie plus he can play small ball. And while I don't expect him to average 20 a game I can see him scoring what he did in SA with similar minutes.
I think we'll see more minutes with the 2nd string this season because they'll play better as a unit and Snyder will leave them in - they're better defensively and the scoring punch will be better. We won't need to rely on Clarkson so much and that will help his efficiency. I just hope Snyder doesn't start subbing in starters if the 2nd unit is ballin'.
Though having Gay means Bogie is more expendable and if a trade makes sense (like to get a decent SF who is a great defender) we can then plug Gay into the starting lineup and we're still rolling along. He's clearly a better rebounder and defender than Bogie plus he can play small ball. And while I don't expect him to average 20 a game I can see him scoring what he did in SA with similar minutes.
I think we'll see more minutes with the 2nd string this season because they'll play better as a unit and Snyder will leave them in - they're better defensively and the scoring punch will be better. We won't need to rely on Clarkson so much and that will help his efficiency. I just hope Snyder doesn't start subbing in starters if the 2nd unit is ballin'.
candrew
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Only last year and he was awful - in fact I think he was a net negative player last year for the first time.
In all fairness he was in Sacramento - where careers go to die.
homeytennis
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The Kings last year were a death ship. I'm surprised Luke Walton is back. He has failed with the Lakers and is failing biggly in Sacto.
Keefe
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Wasn’t he also a backup the year before behind Nurkic? Or did the latter miss that whole season?
Nurkic was out and Whiteside started all but 6 games he played.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
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Went with my heart and chose Butler. Obviously if he can replace Conley, get out of his money that would benefit the team a lot moving forward.
SoberasHotRod
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Am I just being paranoid to think that Paschall's minutes could be a point of friction between front office/coaching staff/star player?
This was my initial concern because I don’t see this guy in any kind of regular rotation. Probably accumulates a lot more (total) minutes than the other guys last year because you can probably throw him in without things going to **** like the end of our bench last year. If Royce is ever out (let’s pray not), I hope he can step in as a competent defender.