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l Abach l said:
Anyone else kind of bummed out we are seeing the death of the traditional NBA center? Ayton got played off the court... Look at the final 4 teams. All small ball. Bigs are getting mauled on every single possession yet refs don't call anything. Idk. Really makes me think we should trade Gobert and go smaller. Centers just aren't valuable in the playoffs anymore.
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Two years ago - years after the death of the center had been proclaimed, the Lakers bullied their way to a ring and got a bunch of mediocre bigs paid in the following off-season.

To be an unskilled big, you have to be elite at the garbage man stuff. Gobert is not a dude that can put a team on his back in the playoffs but - like any player - with the right players around him can be effective. Most teams don’t have those pieces.

Also, it seems the Celtics have bigs.

Also, it seems Bam is a big. And a very good one.

I think it is a good thing that success or failure isn’t predicated on who has the best giant anymore. Maybe it’s gone the other way a little too far but ogre ball is ****ing crappy and boring anyway.
 
LoPo said:
It's almost like he would be such an amazing 3rd option.

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So? Are you trying to make this a part of a bigger discussion?

He was terrible this series and even Giannis with his godly performance couldn't carry him past Celtics. He sucked. I think that's pretty clear.
 
NUMBERICA said:
This **** blows my mind. Why are he and Quin not load-managing THE **** out of these ancients (that are also the smallest dudes on the court)?
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I think Quin did a better job of it. At least, Conley's problems didn't feel physical to me.

Conley had only 30 games with 30+ minutes. Chris Paul had 49. And you could make the argument that Jazz had more incentive to play their guys because they needed some unity.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Two years ago - years after the death of the center had been proclaimed, the Lakers bullied their way to a ring and got a bunch of mediocre bigs paid in the following off-season.

To be an unskilled big, you have to be elite at the garbage man stuff. Gobert is not a dude that can put a team on his back in the playoffs but - like any player - with the right players around him can be effective. Most teams don’t have those pieces.

Also, it seems the Celtics have bigs.

Also, it seems Bam is a big. And a very good one.

I think it is a good thing that success or failure isn’t predicated on who has the best giant anymore. Maybe it’s gone the other way a little too far but ogre ball is ****ing crappy and boring anyway.
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I definitely don’t miss ogre ball. I do miss guys valuing possessions. I can’t stand that 9/10 fast breaks have 3 on 2 adv for the offense and a guy wide open for a dunk and the ball handler instead elects to brick a 3. I miss those thunderous fast break dunks we used to see. Instead, everyone tries to be Steph and Klay and it just drives me crazy. Take the guaranteed 2.
 
l Abach l said:
Anyone else kind of bummed out we are seeing the death of the traditional NBA center? Ayton got played off the court... Look at the final 4 teams. All small ball. Bigs are getting mauled on every single possession yet refs don't call anything. Idk. Really makes me think we should trade Gobert and go smaller. Centers just aren't valuable in the playoffs anymore.
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This has been coming for quite some time now. Feeding the post and going to work has started to die out. I used to love watching it, but those days are gone.

Players are so athletic and skilled these days. Centers like Bam and Horford are really all the big man you need. These teams can sprinkle in a guy like Williams, but its not sustainable with so much skill and shooting on the floor.

Thats why I love a guy like John Collins. He's probably got another 10+ years as a valuable player. He can play PF or C, he can shoot, rebound, attack off the dribble and his defense is improving.

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LoPo said:
This has been coming for quite some time now. Feeding the post and going to work has started to die out. I used to love watching it, but those days are gone.

Players are so athletic and skilled these days. Centers like Bam and Horford are really all the big man you need. These teams can sprinkle in a guy like Williams, but its not sustainable with so much skill and shooting on the floor.

Thats why I love a guy like John Collins. He's probably got another 10+ years as a valuable player. He can play PF or C, he can shoot, rebound, attack off the dribble and his defense is improving.

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Collins can’t shoot though. He’s not a skilled player. He’s more JSmooth than Al Horford
 
The Thriller said:
Collins can’t shoot though. He’s not a skilled player. He’s more JSmooth than Al Horford
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John Collins:
6'9" 235
Career 37.6% shooter from 3
78% from the free throw line
Career 60% EFG%
Career 8.3 rebounds per game
Career 16.5 points per game
Career 1.6 assists per game
4 seasons where he averaged over 16ppg

Horford:
6'9" 240
Career 36% shooter from 3
76% from the free throw line
Career 54.4% EFG%
Career 8.2 rebounds per game
Career 13.7 points per game
Career 3.3 assists per game
3 seasons where he averaged over 16ppg

Steals, blocks, turnovers per game are almost identical between the two players. I don't see why Collins couldn't have a very long career as a PF/C much like Horford has had.
 
LoPo said:
This has been coming for quite some time now. Feeding the post and going to work has started to die out. I used to love watching it, but those days are gone.

Players are so athletic and skilled these days. Centers like Bam and Horford are really all the big man you need. These teams can sprinkle in a guy like Williams, but its not sustainable with so much skill and shooting on the floor.

Thats why I love a guy like John Collins. He's probably got another 10+ years as a valuable player. He can play PF or C, he can shoot, rebound, attack off the dribble and his defense is improving.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
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John Collins at the 5 is gonna look more like Al Jefferson on defense than Al Horford. He’d be the worst defender in the Celtics starting 5 and the 4th worst in Dallas.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
John Collins at the 5 is gonna look more like Al Jefferson on defense than Al Horford. He’d be the worst defender in the Celtics starting 5 and the 4th worst in Dallas.
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Horford is a better defender. Not arguing that at all. He even got better, especially on the perimeter, as time went on. Horford is also probably the 5th worst defender on Boston. That team is loaded with switchable defenders.

I believe that Collins has improved as a defender, and can get to a point where he is good enough as a small ball center defensively. Offensively, he could be a major force if used correctly.
 
Avery said:
So, find the next Dok, roger that.
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We should buy into the late 2nd round. Usually lots of Dok clones available then. We could have our pick of them!


Pun intended.
 
LoPo said:
Horford is a better defender. Not arguing that at all. He even got better, especially on the perimeter, as time went on. Horford is also probably the 5th worst defender on Boston. That team is loaded with switchable defenders.

I believe that Collins has improved as a defender, and can get to a point where he is good enough as a small ball center defensively. Offensively, he could be a major force if used correctly.
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Horford is the 2nd best defender in that starting lineup. Williams is great against Giannis but he’s not as versatile as Al.

Collins isn’t the same size as Al… 1-1.5 inches shorter and Al is 7+ wingspan. Al has played the majority of his minutes at center… Collins hardly ever does it. He survived for a few minutes a game at center in a playoff series. I’d be shocked if he can ever do it for more than 8 minutes a night and be effective at all.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Horford is the 2nd best defender in that starting lineup. Williams is great against Giannis but he’s not as versatile as Al.

Collins isn’t the same size as Al… 1-1.5 inches shorter and Al is 7+ wingspan. Al has played the majority of his minutes at center… Collins hardly ever does it. He survived for a few minutes a game at center in a playoff series. I’d be shocked if he can ever do it for more than 8 minutes a night and be effective at all.
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These are from the combine, and their measurements are almost identical.

Horford:
w/shoes 6'9.75"
Standing Reach 8'11"
Wingspan 7'.75"

Collins:
w/shoes 6'9.5"
Standing Reach 8'10.5"
Wingspan 6'11.25"

Somebody made the point that Collins could never be Horford because Horford is more skilled and Collins isn't as good of a shooter. Collins is actually a better offensive player than Horford.

Horford has played primarily center in his career, and has been a great success. I don't think Collins would be Al Horford because every player is different. If Collins was given more time at C, I think he could progress nicely.
 
The Thriller said:
Collins can’t shoot though. He’s not a skilled player. He’s more JSmooth than Al Horford
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Him and Al play different styles. Collins is way more athletic than Horford. I think he will be a really good player in his career. May never see an all star game but he is definitely a skilled player.


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LoPo said:
These are from the combine, and their measurements are almost identical.

Horford:
w/shoes 6'9.75"
Standing Reach 8'11"
Wingspan 7'.75"

Collins:
w/shoes 6'9.5"
Standing Reach 8'10.5"
Wingspan 6'11.25"

Somebody made the point that Collins could never be Horford because Horford is more skilled and Collins isn't as good of a shooter. Collins is actually a better offensive player than Horford.

Horford has played primarily center in his career, and has been a great success. I don't think Collins would be Al Horford because every player is different. If Collins was given more time at C, I think he could progress nicely.
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Collins lost an inch in official nba measurements… If you think of Collins as a small ball center I think you’ll be quite disappointed. He may masquerade there for 8-10 minutes a night but the other guys would have to be good sized wings who are great defenders.

He may be great as a roll/pop guy in PnR… but I think you’d need a solid stretch 5 to have success there.
 
Cptgrnlngs22 said:
Him and Al play different styles. Collins is way more athletic than Horford. I think he will be a really good player in his career. May never see an all star game but he is definitely a skilled player.


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I think Collins best outcome is as a stretchy Boozer.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Collins lost an inch in official nba measurements… If you think of Collins as a small ball center I think you’ll be quite disappointed. He may masquerade there for 8-10 minutes a night but the other guys would have to be good sized wings who are great defenders.

He may be great as a roll/pop guy in PnR… but I think you’d need a solid stretch 5 to have success there.
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That's fair. I think Collins playing half of his minutes at center is completely reasonable though.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Horford is the 2nd best defender in that starting lineup. Williams is great against Giannis but he’s not as versatile as Al.

Collins isn’t the same size as Al… 1-1.5 inches shorter and Al is 7+ wingspan. Al has played the majority of his minutes at center… Collins hardly ever does it. He survived for a few minutes a game at center in a playoff series. I’d be shocked if he can ever do it for more than 8 minutes a night and be effective at all.
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Al has a 2” reach on Collins and they are the same height. So they are pretty close to the same size lol. I think John Collins would dominate as a small ball 5. He is fast and athletic and doesn’t shy away from defensive effort.


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