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You still didn’t answer the question for the third time. Calling out people for not being credible. You have 0 credibility. You cant even answer a basic question. I’ll ask you again, one last time.

Should this book be banned in elementary schools?
If the elementary school stops at 5th grade, it should not be there. If the elementary school goes up to 7th or 8th grade, I don't have a problem with it there. What part of this answer is lacking?

Stupid reply with no substance. More evidence of your 0 credibility.
I know you're smarter than you're acting right now.
 



Schools often go younger than the intended audience. Shakespeare was intended for adults, but I studied him in high school. Edgar Allen Poe, also.

Genderqueer is not nearly as explicit as the Bible, AFAICT. I've never seen you say the Bible should not be in a school library.

Easy, the Bible should not be in a Public school library. In religion classes, there should be some/many.

See how easy it is to answer a question. If you’re at a religious private school, then yes they should have them in the library. Just to clarify.
 
You still didn’t answer the question for the third time. Calling out people for not being credible. You have 0 credibility. You cant even answer a basic question. I’ll ask you again, one last time.

Should this book be banned in elementary schools?


Stupid reply with no substance. More evidence of your 0 credibility.
Just because AIO self immolated his account doesn't mean OB, a multi-decade poster here, also has 0 credibility. OB could run a deficit for years and still be in the positive.
 
If the elementary school stops at 5th grade, it should not be there. If the elementary school goes up to 7th or 8th grade, I don't have a problem with it there. What part of this answer is lacking?
Still didn’t answer it. Should that book be banned from public elementary schools? I’ll even make it easier on you. K-5 elementary schools?
I know you're smarter than you're acting right now.
Absolutely, I could be more professional about this.
 
I've provided zero evidence that individuals who are gay sexually would find graphic images depicting gay sex to be arousing? Uh, okay.
The images presented are not graphic at all. They are very sparsely drawn cartoons. I find it interesting that you insist they are sexually arousing drawings. Is that because they arouse you?

Furthermore, that's not the claim I disputed. I disputed "It is the intentions of the producer of the work, and the producer of this work has been crystal clear the intended audience is the demographic that would find one boy blowing another to be sexually arousing."
 
As a side note, I'm disappointed that you aren't more open and have resorted to gay bashing those who may be exploring some things.
Adults finding a simplistic drawing of kids having sex to be arousing is pretty creepy, regardless of the genders of the kids involved. I wonder why this is not obvious to you.
 
Just because AIO self immolated his account doesn't mean OB, a multi-decade poster here, also has 0 credibility. OB could run a deficit for years and still be in the positive.
Sure, but I have little patience left for OB. No effort, demands proof but doesn’t provide any, try’s to twist statements up, doesn’t answer questions. Just asks questions for gotcha moments. Honestly just a waste of time. He has no good faith in debating.
 
Easy, the Bible should not be in a Public school library. In religion classes, there should be some/many.

See how easy it is to answer a question. If you’re at a religious private school, then yes they should have them in the library. Just to clarify.
So, you support first graders reading about semen flowing like the emissions of donkeys in Ezekiel, and have a problem with "Gender Queer". I think the graphicness of the work is not the entirety of the issue.
 
Still didn’t answer it. Should that book be banned from public elementary schools? I’ll even make it easier on you. K-5 elementary schools?
The book does not belong in K-5 schools, and should be removed if it is there. I don't know why it has not been clear that is my opinion.
 
I wish I could recreate the graffiti that existed under the I-80 overpass over the Jordan River in SLC. I lived very very close to this when I was 2 to 10 years old from '79 to '87. There was the standard D and balls stick figure quality image and a "V" with a line vertically through it with a crude attempt at pubic hair with a stick figure female with ASCII quality boobs. There were also some "F" words and such spray painted there. Oh, and there were man poops to dodge.

I had sex and ate dat ***** when I was 13 years old. My GF was 14 at the time (high fives all around, thank you very much).

There isn't anything in those earlier posted images that I hadn't seen before I was 10. Yeah, the school library probably isn't the right place for that. But at the same time this is not some kind of tragedy.

I had to go to my kids elementary school when they were in 4th grade because they searched the school library computer for "wet p****" and my kid's teacher was hot and told me what was searched for. Fun times.

Kids aren't as innocent as we think, hope, want, expect that they are.

Sure, take those books out of schools and high fives all around for saving the children. Imagine your amazing victory over evil as if it is real. It isn't.
 
So, you support first graders reading about semen flowing like the emissions of donkeys in Ezekiel, and have a problem with "Gender Queer". I think the graphicness of the work is not the entirety of the issue.
You just ripped Al about his postings and you do this…

Here is the verse everyone…get ready I mean it’s really perverse:

20For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

This is why you’re a waste of time and you don’t have any credibility.
 
19 Yet she increased her whoring. She remembered the days of her youth when she acted like a prostitute in the land of Egypt. 20 She lusted after her paramours, whose genitals[a] were like the genitals of donkeys and whose ejaculation was like the ejaculation of horses. 21 So you revisited the lewdness of your youth when your nipples were caressed in Egypt, and your young breasts were fondled.

Evangelical Heritage Version

Ezekiel 23:19-21


Good News Translation​

19 She became more of a prostitute than ever, acting the way she did as a young woman, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 She was filled with lust for oversexed men who had all the lustfulness of donkeys or stallions.” (21 Oholibah, you wanted to repeat the immorality you were guilty of as a young woman in Egypt, where men played with your breasts and you lost your virginity.)

Ezekiel 23:19-21


New English Translation​


19 Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. 20 She lusted after her lovers there, whose genitals were like those of donkeys,[a] and whose emission was like that of stallions. 21 This is how you assessed[b] the obscene conduct of your youth, when the Egyptians fondled[c] your nipples and squeezed[d] your young breasts.



*shrug*
 
Sure, but I have little patience left for OB. No effort, demands proof but doesn’t provide any, try’s to twist statements up, doesn’t answer questions. Just asks questions for gotcha moments. Honestly just a waste of time. He has no good faith in debating.
One Brow provides a lot of evidence in my opinion. I won't defend every one of One Brow's posts, I have no interest in doing so, and you may have a point here and there. My general sentiment is that One Brow supports his points and asks valid questions.

Fun fact, when I first joined jazzfanz I was a hardcore Objectivist type (not quite OPAR level, but OPAR sympathetic for sure) Libertarian. Fair to say that One Brow and I were generally not in agreement. He was as patient and persistent with me as he has been with many posters since. He legitimately helped me explore my own ideas and assumptions.

I was often the one person defending a position against the "mob" back then. Many people were downright hostile towards me. Being a good Objectivist I embraced the opposition and responded tirelessly to every challenge. One Brow, after years, literally years, pushed me to ask myself questions that I eventually ran out of answers for.

Spoiler alert, Objectivism fell apart for me on the topic of coercion. There was really no answer for it. I don't think One Brow was even the one to suggest that. I think his persistent questioning eventually led me to consider it as I was working on yet another rebuttal to one of his posts.

Anyway.
 
One Brow provides a lot of evidence in my opinion. I won't defend every one of One Brow's posts, I have no interest in doing so, and you may have a point here and there. My general sentiment is that One Brow supports his points and asks valid questions.

Fun fact, when I first joined jazzfanz I was a hardcore Objectivist type (not quite OPAR level, but OPAR sympathetic for sure) Libertarian. Fair to say that One Brow and I were generally not in agreement. He was as patient and persistent with me as he has been with many posters since. He legitimately helped me explore my own ideas and assumptions.

I was often the one person defending a position against the "mob" back then. Many people were downright hostile towards me. Being a good Objectivist I embraced the opposition and responded tirelessly to every challenge. One Brow, after years, literally years, pushed me to ask myself questions that I eventually ran out of answers for.

Spoiler alert, Objectivism fell apart for me on the topic of coercion. There was really no answer for it. I don't think One Brow was even the one to suggest that. I think his persistent questioning eventually led me to consider it as I was working on yet another rebuttal to one of his posts.

Anyway.
Coercion? That would be an interesting conversation . That could be associated with many different topics. I see if that is still in this sites history.
 
Coercion? That would be an interesting conversation . That could be associated with many different topics. I see if that is still in this sites history.
It isn't. This all happened before the crash of 2010, sadly.

Also, I don't think I made any kind of big announcement. I tried to figure out the "coercion problem" on my own for a very long time while still supporting Libertarianism and arguing for it on the site, while avoiding that topic. Again, it wasn't a subject that anyone pointed out to me. It was internal.

I used to say frequently that my version of libertarianism wasn't a place we could get to from here, that it would require a massive disruption to the current order of things and I'd defend my position by saying that I was arguing for an ideological truth not a utilitarian reality.

I have to go, unfortunately
 
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19 Yet she increased her whoring. She remembered the days of her youth when she acted like a prostitute in the land of Egypt. 20 She lusted after her paramours, whose genitals[a] were like the genitals of donkeys and whose ejaculation was like the ejaculation of horses. 21 So you revisited the lewdness of your youth when your nipples were caressed in Egypt, and your young breasts were fondled.

Evangelical Heritage Version

Ezekiel 23:19-21​

Good News Translation​

19 She became more of a prostitute than ever, acting the way she did as a young woman, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 She was filled with lust for oversexed men who had all the lustfulness of donkeys or stallions.” (21 Oholibah, you wanted to repeat the immorality you were guilty of as a young woman in Egypt, where men played with your breasts and you lost your virginity.)

Ezekiel 23:19-21​

New English Translation​


19 Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. 20 She lusted after her lovers there, whose genitals were like those of donkeys,[a] and whose emission was like that of stallions. 21 This is how you assessed[b] the obscene conduct of your youth, when the Egyptians fondled[c] your nipples and squeezed[d] your young breasts.



*shrug*

Why stop there? Why didn’t you include these?

20 She wanted men who behaved like animals in their sexual desire.

20 For she lusted upon their pilagshim (illicit lovers), whose basar is as the basar of chamorim, and whose issue is like the issue of susim.

20 And she was wild in lechery on the lying-by of them, whose fleshes be as the fleshes of asses, and as the members of horses be the members of them. (And she was mad with lechery in their lyings-by, whose flesh be like donkeys’ flesh, and their members be like horses’ members.)

20 But that didn’t bother her. She turned to even greater prostitution, sinning with the lustful men she remembered from her youth when she was a prostitute in Egypt.

20 She eagerly wanted to go to bed with Egyptian men, who were famous for their sexual powers

I posted the most used version.
 
Coercion? That would be an interesting conversation . That could be associated with many different topics. I see if that is still in this sites history.
Try the five post string starting with this one for some old Gameface.

 
You just ripped Al about his postings and you do this…

Here is the verse everyone…get ready I mean it’s really perverse:

20For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

This is why you’re a waste of time and you don’t have any credibility.
You quoted a verse saying exactly what I said.
 
We already have safeguards in place for K-12 curriculum and library books. There were already procedures to challenge books. Why are some of you acting like there wasn’t any procedure until Chris Rufo made this a fear in 2021-2022 on Tucker’s show? You don’t think there haven’t been concerned white women groups, like “Mom’s for Liberty” before? What do you think citizens councils were in the 1960s? If you don’t like the curriculum, have you contacted your state school board member? If you don’t like a book, have you submitted a review request at your school? Or have you merely yelled at a district school board meeting mindlessly about books you saw on Facebook and Fox News? This happened locally here in Utah. The district in question didn’t even own the books that people were screaming about.

The issue is that a loud group of parents who watch too much Fox News and are being organized (and paid) by groups already looking to hurt public education so they can privatize it (and make money off of it), are trying to bypass procedures. They want to impose their will on the public education system without following the procedures. It’s much easier to intimidate and scare school boards and librarians through mob action than to follow procedures and present your case in a rational manner. We’ve also seen this lately. Whether it be Covid mandates or elections. The right would rather scream in a cashier’s face rather than abide by the store’s mask requirement. They’d rather try and hang the vice president then admit that their guy lost an election.

We’ve had book bans and other moral crisis before. Whether it be integration in the 50s and 60s or Satanic Panic in the 70s and 80s. Those prior instances also included white middle class conservatives freaking out over changes to culture. This isn’t that much different either. The main difference between now and then is that there are a group of billionaires (the DeVos Family being a big part of this. They’re everything conservatives claim Soros is) who are well organized and are looking to benefit financially by privatizing public education. they’ve successfully tied this drive to privatize public education to political identity.

It’s much harder for public education proponents to field a defense because they don’t have a political party in their back pocket nor do they have a propaganda apparatus that tells millions of Americans every night that their enemies are groomers and child molesters. I feel for educators. They’re expected to teach, wipe every child’s butt, pander to parents, protect schools from shooters when the police are cowering in fear, vilified for every little thing, and are blamed for every ill in society. No wonder why we have such a teacher shortage in this country!

EDIT: Most book ban requests in Utah have been filed by a handful of parents associated with the Facebook group “Utah Parents United.” What’s *shocking* is that many of these parents are well known lobbyists for vouchers and advocates of homeschooling. Some even have ties to the Heritage Foundation and the DeVos family. What a mystery as to why they’d want to overload the school system with ban requests and diminish the public’s trust in public schools /s
 
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For those who will undoubtedly take this opportunity to attack public education, let me stop you right there. Every Career has pros and cons. So I ask that you Go and work at a local public school and compare it with other jobs you’ve had. From Ogden to Nebo, there are plenty of openings in a variety of positions. Give it a try for a year. I have connections in most of these districts. DM me if you’re interested and I can provide you with more information. Best of luck!
 
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