Page 2 of 15 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 146
  1. #11
    In pursuit of #9 Dr. Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    62,121
    Mentioned
    171 Post(s)
    Total Rep Points
    96720
    Rep Adjustment Power
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by Stoked View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You can drink in moderation without ggetting drunk. Really enjoy an ale with your steak or a glass of wine with that italian food? By all means...
    Dangit. I was hoping you could get drunk in moderation .. you know, just not too often..

    I kid.

    By the way, other than my posts, this has been a very good thread.
    Fortune and glory, kid. Fortune and glory.

  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Posts
    Many
     

  3. #12
    Senior Member Beantown's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Look outside your window
    Posts
    7,981
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Total Rep Points
    6903
    Rep Adjustment Power
    52
    Yea getting drunk throws that whole moderation thing out the window.

  4. #13
    Senior Member Zulu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    The STG
    Posts
    10,260
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Total Rep Points
    28755
    Rep Adjustment Power
    100
    Not to sure where I fall on this subject... I have a friend cough.. Eric.. Cough that has come to the idea that the WOW is completely open to interpretation and always tells me about stuff he has read about past prophets and apostles not obeying the WOW completely. He doesn't really go to much against the taught WOW now, he mainly enjoys an Ice tea every day or so.

    For me there has been time I have consumed alcohol knowingly and unknowingly, when I drank on my senior trip in Australia I felt like I was breaking the WOW and fully repented before I went on my mission a year later.

    Today I follow the word of wisdom the same way I taught it on mission, no alcoholic drinks, no smoking or chewing tobacco, no illegal drugs and don't abuse prescription drugs!

    But I don't really get down on those who casually follow the WOW!! Free agency yo!!

  5. #14
    In pursuit of #9 Dr. Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    62,121
    Mentioned
    171 Post(s)
    Total Rep Points
    96720
    Rep Adjustment Power
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulu View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Not to sure where I fall on this subject... I have a friend cough.. Eric.. Cough that has come to the idea that the WOW is completely open to interpretation and always tells me about stuff he has read about past prophets and apostles not obeying the WOW completely. He doesn't really go to much against the taught WOW now, he mainly enjoys an Ice tea every day or so.

    For me there has been time I have consumed alcohol knowingly and unknowingly, we I drank on my senior trip in Australia I felt like I was breaking the WOW and fully repented before I went on my mission a year later.

    Today I follow the word of wisdom the same way I taught it on mission, no alcoholic drinks, no smoking or chewing tobacco, no illegal drugs and don't abuse prescription drugs!

    But I don't really get down on those who casually follow the WOW!! Free agency yo!!
    I have met Zulu more than once. With all my faults I am extremely good at reading people and let me tell you a little about Zulu (relevant);

    This guy I respect as much as I possibly could. He lives his convictions the best he can. He admits he falls short, is imperfect. He can see when others should be trying harder to live a bit better, but refrains from judging. Having said that, I can tell he is legitimately concerned, but lives with a philosophy similar to "if not for the grace of God, there go I."

    He has no pretentiousness about being better for the way he lives, but does feel a sense of healthy pride in the fact.

    Bottom line is, he tries, recognizes he falls short. He doesn't look down his nose at others ..

    Because of this, imo, he is a wonderful witness for his faith.

    (I have had ZERO conversations with Zulu about religion or anything I discussed above .. I can just tell.)
    Fortune and glory, kid. Fortune and glory.

  6. #15
    Senior Member margodydek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    1,617
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Total Rep Points
    1685
    Rep Adjustment Power
    32
    One of the rules of my mission was that the missionaries were not supposed to drink the tap water. However, when you've been walking all day in 98 degree weather with 90% humidity, and a local offers you a glass of ice water, it's mighty hard to (1) tell them no, and (2) do it in a way that doesn't make you sound like a douche. Needless to say this was one of those rules that very few missionaries obeyed. However, there was a time in mission where my companion and I decided to be 100% obedient and basically challenge the Lord to his promise when he said, "I, the Lord am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise." So we did everything by the book, which of course meant that no more tap water. I didn't keep it up for my whole mission and to be honest I never noticed a spike in "spirituality". However, I will say that the most successful time on my mission was during that time.

  7. #16
    All Around Nice Guy colton's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    10,393
    Mentioned
    86 Post(s)
    Total Rep Points
    21522
    Rep Adjustment Power
    100
    I'll give you my responses, Bronco. I've researched this quite a bit myself over the years, so I think my comments are pretty accurate. Hopefully you'll find them helpful.

    1. "Is the WoW a commandment?" -- In the beginning, no. But now yes. Although an argument could be made that it was the will of God that the Saints follow it even in the beginning, else why would it have been given? And what is a commandment other than an expression of the will of God for us to follow? Anyway, as you know it wasn't a requirement for church members to follow the WoW at first. Brigham Young in 1851 went a long ways towards changing that, (if I recall correctly) telling the Saints that it was now the will of God for it to be a full-fledged commandment rather than just a suggestion. The implementation of the commandment was still not complete for another 50-60 years after that, when eventually Pres. Grant made adherence to the prohibitions a standard for temple recommends. The Wikipedia article has some good info on the history of the WoW, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom if you haven't read it yet. I've got another, more complete source I can email you (a master's thesis on the topic)--if you're interested, send me a PM.

    My take is basically, if you support Brigham Young as prophet and president of the church, and subsequent church presidents, then you support their ability to clarify existing revelation, and/or to modify them as times & circumstances warrant--including in this case to change the WoW into a commandment.

    2. "The membership seems to practice (and the authorities allow) selective obedience" -- Absolutely. But I disagree with your "So, essentially, if you cannot "run and not be weary", you aren't living the WoW correctly" sentence. What about paraplegics, for example? Are you going to say they don't live the WoW correctly? Other counter examples are easy to find. So the "run and not be weary" line doesn't mean that in a literal, absolute sense. I agree that we should be very nonjudgmental towards others--and in fact when my high priest's group was discussing this a couple of months ago, several of the members expressed similar sentiments. I think one of them said something along the lines that "tobacco is one of my very favorite smells at church, because that generally means someone is trying to return to the fold."

    3. "Interpretation of the relative importance of the WoW has changed over the course of the history of the church." -- Sure, see my comments for item 1 above. In addition to the "make a profit from tobacco" stuff at the UTLM link, I also have a relative who worked for a while as a trucker for a beer company. I also knew a man in Wisconsin who worked for years at the local brewery after he joined the church. Heck, I even had a missionary companion who worked as a bartender to save money for his mission! :-) As near as I can tell, it's the church's policy that it's sinful for *church members* to partake of the prohibited substances, because we've made covenants not to, but not necessarily sinful for others to do so. I personally do not judge nonmembers at all for, for example, drinking beer*--but I'm grateful for the teachings of the church that have led me myself to never try it. My grandfather was an alcoholic, fortunately sober when I knew him, and who knows? I could easily have ended up one myself.

    By the way, I've browsed the UTLM website a lot, and have looked up many of their references. Unfortunately I've discovered they *frequently* take quotes out of context, and so I've stopped trusting anything from there. At most I'll google a quote from their website to see if I can find it anywhere else with more context. I'm not saying that the quotes are wrong in this case, just that I've stopped trusting them in general.

    4. "Beer." -- I've had non-alcoholic drinks from barley before. I had a member in Germany give me a nonalcoholic beer, for example. And it seems like when I was growing up, my mom stocked Postum in our cupboard, which if I recall correctly is a barley-containing drink as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postum. So "mild drinks from barley" makes perfect sense to me.


    Final remarks: Something that I think goes largely unnoticed, is that the period of time when the WoW went from being a suggestion in the church to an enforced commandment, ~1860-1920, is exactly the time period when refrigeration became available, first on the commercial scale and then for individual households. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigeration and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator. Alcohol had substantial importance as a preservative in the time period when the WoW was given, but as electric refrigerators became more common, the need to rely on alcohol to preserve things was greatly reduced. I personally feel that's a large reason why the Lord saw fit to change the WoW into a more enforced commandment for the church during those years.


    * but not to the extent of getting drunk
    "Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant." --Matthew 20:25-27

    :-)

  8. #17
    world's worst Bronco70's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    In the backseat
    Posts
    5,071
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Total Rep Points
    12416
    Rep Adjustment Power
    70
    Thanks, colton. That is some material for me to digest. I appreciate the time you took to lay it out like that.

    A couple of things, though...

    But I disagree with your "So, essentially, if you cannot "run and not be weary", you aren't living the WoW correctly" sentence. What about paraplegics, for example? Are you going to say they don't live the WoW correctly? Other counter examples are easy to find. So the "run and not be weary" line doesn't mean that in a literal, absolute sense.
    Hopefully you give me enough credit to know that one's ability to "run and not be weary" will not always hinge on what one takes into one's body. I was referring, of course, to those who are just plain out of shape, due to bad diet and lack of exercise. I know plenty of mormons like this. But if you were to ask them if they live the word of wisdom, most would answer affirmatively, without hesitation. To me this is an issue. That certain aspects of the WoW don't carry the same weight as others (no pun intended...)

    As far as barley drinks go, on my mission we were instructed to drink a common barley tea (a hot drink, frequently), in lieu of water, so I am aware of barley based drinks that exist, but I have been unable to find evidence of common beverages that would have been made by the people of that time and place other than "beer" and "small beer" (a beer with around 1% alcohol). And while I understand that alcohol may have been needed for preservative purposes, if distillation technology was there, why not just produce potable water?

    Lastly, and this is my biggest hangup, is that all my life I have been taught that God is unchanging - the same yesterday, today, and forever. But the WoW doesn't reflect this. I understand that as mankind and society expand and evolve, some things need to accommodate. The Law of Moses, for example. But to me, the WoW seems like it should be straight forward, and that there is no need for it to apply differently to various generations of the church. From the get go, God could say "Don't consume this, and this, and this..." But perhaps I'm looking at this too simplistically.

    Again, I do appreciate the input from everyone.

  9. #18
    Free at last!!! bigb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Outside Gobert's bedroom window...
    Posts
    8,208
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Total Rep Points
    16455
    Rep Adjustment Power
    83
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Lastly, and this is my biggest hangup, is that all my life I have been taught that God is unchanging - the same yesterday, today, and forever. But the WoW doesn't reflect this. I understand that as mankind and society expand and evolve, some things need to accommodate. The Law of Moses, for example. But to me, the WoW seems like it should be straight forward, and that there is no need for it to apply differently to various generations of the church. From the get go, God could say "Don't consume this, and this, and this..." But perhaps I'm looking at this too simplistically.

    Again, I do appreciate the input from everyone.
    Please note I'm not trying to be a smartass when I say this, but that wouldn't work. How would Joseph Smith have known what the heck God was saying if He'd said "Don't smoke ganja, heroin, or crack. Don't snort cocaine. Don't abuse oxycodone or percocet."

    Personally, I've always found it amusing when people are so black and white with most of the Gospel "laws". I think we all do the best we can with the limited knowledge and understanding we have and God sorts it out in the end. Personally, I choose not to drink. I tried it in high school and didn't like it, that's the reason I choose not to. Not because some Seminary teacher told me not to.
    ​Gobert or go home


  10. #19
    Senior Member Chris-L's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    yamming. hard.
    Posts
    6,841
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Total Rep Points
    18215
    Rep Adjustment Power
    84
    Quote Originally Posted by PKM View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I have met Zulu more than once. With all my faults I am extremely good at reading people and let me tell you a little about Zulu (relevant);

    This guy I respect as much as I possibly could. He lives his convictions the best he can. He admits he falls short, is imperfect. He can see when others should be trying harder to live a bit better, but refrains from judging. Having said that, I can tell he is legitimately concerned, but lives with a philosophy similar to "if not for the grace of God, there go I."

    He has no pretentiousness about being better for the way he lives, but does feel a sense of healthy pride in the fact.

    Bottom line is, he tries, recognizes he falls short. He doesn't look down his nose at others ..

    Because of this, imo, he is a wonderful witness for his faith.

    (I have had ZERO conversations with Zulu about religion or anything I discussed above .. I can just tell.)
    As someone who has known him almost 20 years, this is spot on. And is the reason he is about the only person from the church who still calls me a friend (and i him) after me not attending for 15+ years. My brother Eric is the same way, live your life the way you see best, and cast no judgement on others for doing it differently. I drink quite often, and i smoke. Because of that most of the people i grew up with in the church have chosen to not have a relationship with me in any form. Even my LDS neighbors won't let their children be friends with my children because choices me and my wife make that do not align with what they believe. It's hard for me to understand how people can let personal moral choices define every aspect of their lives so significantly.

  11. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Drinkin haterade, ridin the hate train through hateville
    Posts
    17,091
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Total Rep Points
    48516
    Rep Adjustment Power
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Lastly, and this is my biggest hangup, is that all my life I have been taught that God is unchanging - the same yesterday, today, and forever. But the WoW doesn't reflect this. I understand that as mankind and society expand and evolve, some things need to accommodate. The Law of Moses, for example. But to me, the WoW seems like it should be straight forward, and that there is no need for it to apply differently to various generations of the church. From the get go, God could say "Don't consume this, and this, and this..." But perhaps I'm looking at this too simplistically.

    Again, I do appreciate the input from everyone.
    I'm plenty buzzed right now so take this for what it's worth...

    My view on this is God (Jesus) has a Work of perfecting humanity and that takes incremental steps. Was Eve to be born with all knowing knowledge? If so then what is the point of continual advancement over time? IMO, if there is a God then nursing humanity along is logical PROGRESSION.

    Look, if we're going the "God is unchanging" route then there really is no need for neandertha man, Noah's water conquest, kingdom fighting conquests, or any African racism angle. God could have started humanity with every single piece of knowledge possible and we'd be fighting the good vs. evil battle until every last soul has taken a body.


    Put some respeck in my paycheck

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About Us
We are a community of Utah JazzFanz that are passionate about our team. We celebrate the highs that come with last second heroics and (some of us) cry in defeat. Welcome to our community. Be respectful of others and join in to the conversation...
Join us