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Thread: Gut the team

  1. #51
    Senior Member Mission Accomplished's Avatar
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    Corbin = Everything good and pure in the Universe
    To quote George "W" "For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings. And, folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it." --Philadelphia, Penn., May 14, 2001

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  3. #52
    Senior Member Mission Accomplished's Avatar
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    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE

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    Last edited by Mission Accomplished; 11-26-2012 at 04:36 PM.
    To quote George "W" "For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings. And, folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it." --Philadelphia, Penn., May 14, 2001

  4. #53
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
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    This is a good post but i would argue that the teams you mentioned (washington, GS, toronto) while having some lottery picks, do not have 4 lottery picks from just 2 draft classes.
    Thoses teams you mentioned are continually in the lotter and therefore get 1 good pick per year, the jazz on the other hand got 4 good picks in only 2 years.
    Not many teams have two #3 picks plus a 9 and 12 pick in just 2 years all without having a bad record.
    So GS, washington and toronto have not been in the jazz situation.

    I think that last year and this year the jazz COULD have played burks and kanter 20 minutes per game and favors and hayward 30 minutes per game and still had a good record and possibly made the playoffs even (much different than the teams you mentioned).
    Also you must look at who was playing ahead of burks and to some extent taking minutes from hayward: Howard, bell, cj miles..... would we really have been much worse if more of those players minutes had went to hayward and burks? Doubtful.
    So to me the jazz (mainly corbin) screwed up big time by giving minutes to CJ, bell and howard (all gone btw) instead of burks and hayward taking more of thier minutes.

    Whats worse is that now they are doing it again: Giving minutes to foye instead of burks when foye will probably be gone next year just like cj, bell, and howard is just adding to the mistakes of last year.

    Couple things.

    I don't know how Hayward gets used as an example of a guy who was being robbed of minutes. He averaged over 30 mpg last season. It's not just you, but for some reason there is a haunting assumption around here that somehow Bell and Howard were killing the guy's development. Just had to get that out.

    Anyways the main example I was talking about was the https://www.basketball-reference.com.../CHI/2005.html 2004 Bulls.

    Chandler(2nd overall)& Curry(4th overall) at 3 years, Heinrich (7th) a year in, Ben Gordon (3rd) & Luol Deng (7th) rookies. This team also sported 3 other non-lottery rooks. Now, in hindsight, not all of those guys were going to be great but basically with most of this core they got good enough to get stomped by the Pistons in the EC semis the next year, just one appearance. This is who I see when I think of the vision of Wes/Freak who would have loved to have jettisoned all the veterans and tanked last year to hopefully get both draft picks.

    My point being, no matter how lottery picks you assemble, unless one of them is a transcendent talent as a prospect ala Derrick Rose (whom the Bulls eventually got of course after repeating the Wes cycle several times) you aren't going anywhere with them and playing them starter minutes simply seasons the players for their next destination.

    Also, whether you are a supporter of Ty or not, he is probably the only coach in the league who was going to continue to attempt to implement the Flex, and if you play a bunch of noobs you can't run any real offense. Thibs and Brooks emphasize D but offensively it's just give the ball to the star and work it out amongst yourselves. Those players aren't learning to play San Antonio ball (or Sloan Ball). Of course the Corbin offense looks like garbage a lot of the time but he is trying to have one. In that regard Foye is hands down better than Burks since he plays and has an impact within the system. This is moot of course if, like Wes, you decided from day 1 that Corbin is a failure but personally I believe it's just as important to develop (install) a system as developing the players themselves. I do like what Ty is trying to do, emphasizing transition and moving into flex sets if it isn't there. Like I said earlier this year he doesn't get a free pass but I want to see what this thing looks like when its put together. Right now it's running like a project car with a loose distributor.

    Anyways IMO rather than worry too much about how much good we can do for the players, we should be looking to package some of those assets with a starter for a much better player somebody else developed. Let the other guy play the lottery game. I'd be way more into this kind of thing if the D league was a true farm system but unfortunately the lottery teams are the farm.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

  5. #54
    Premium Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Notes View Post
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    Couple things.

    I don't know how Hayward gets used as an example of a guy who was being robbed of minutes. He averaged over 30 mpg last season. It's not just you, but for some reason there is a haunting assumption around here that somehow Bell and Howard were killing the guy's development. Just had to get that out.

    Anyways the main example I was talking about was the https://www.basketball-reference.com.../CHI/2005.html 2004 Bulls.

    Chandler(2nd overall)& Curry(4th overall) at 3 years, Heinrich (7th) a year in, Ben Gordon (3rd) & Luol Deng (7th) rookies. This team also sported 3 other non-lottery rooks. Now, in hindsight, not all of those guys were going to be great but basically with most of this core they got good enough to get stomped by the Pistons in the EC semis the next year, just one appearance. This is who I see when I think of the vision of Wes/Freak who would have loved to have jettisoned all the veterans and tanked last year to hopefully get both draft picks.

    My point being, no matter how lottery picks you assemble, unless one of them is a transcendent talent as a prospect ala Derrick Rose (whom the Bulls eventually got of course after repeating the Wes cycle several times) you aren't going anywhere with them and playing them starter minutes simply seasons the players for their next destination.

    Also, whether you are a supporter of Ty or not, he is probably the only coach in the league who was going to continue to attempt to implement the Flex, and if you play a bunch of noobs you can't run any real offense. Thibs and Brooks emphasize D but offensively it's just give the ball to the star and work it out amongst yourselves. Those players aren't learning to play San Antonio ball (or Sloan Ball). Of course the Corbin offense looks like garbage a lot of the time but he is trying to have one. In that regard Foye is hands down better than Burks since he plays and has an impact within the system. This is moot of course if, like Wes, you decided from day 1 that Corbin is a failure but personally I believe it's just as important to develop (install) a system as developing the players themselves. I do like what Ty is trying to do, emphasizing transition and moving into flex sets if it isn't there. Like I said earlier this year he doesn't get a free pass but I want to see what this thing looks like when its put together. Right now it's running like a project car with a loose distributor.

    Anyways IMO rather than worry too much about how much good we can do for the players, we should be looking to package some of those assets with a starter for a much better player somebody else developed. Let the other guy play the lottery game. I'd be way more into this kind of thing if the D league was a true farm system but unfortunately the lottery teams are the farm.
    Very good reply. The only thing i would say that i have a BIG issue with (i have alot of minor issues) is that i can get behind the idea that foye is better for this team than burks, so fine give foye more minutes.... But burks needs SOME minutes somehow. That has been corbins biggest failure to me. The guys getting minutes over burks (howard, bell, cj, foye, and kinda to a lesser extent tinsley) are not good enough to warrant planting burks on the bench for dnp's

  6. #55
    Senior Member Brown Notes's Avatar
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    I agree Burks ought to be playing even if it's just 5 minutes. I don't agree with everything Corbs does. Favors should NO QUESTION be finishing every game and we probably would have won on Saturday if he had. Burks' situation is frustrating because he looks like the kind of guy who could be that Alpha scorer to replace Al's role.

    But I'm starting to think he's more DeRozan than Wade.
    "I'm a moron for thinking the Browns could even sniff 10 wins in a division where the other three teams (two of whom almost always make the playoffs) made the post-season last year. Gyp Rosetti's thee God of football knowledge." - Brown Notes

  7. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
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    Very good reply. The only thing i would say that i have a BIG issue with (i have alot of minor issues) is that i can get behind the idea that foye is better for this team than burks, so fine give foye more minutes.... But burks needs SOME minutes somehow. That has been corbins biggest failure to me. The guys getting minutes over burks (howard, bell, cj, foye, and kinda to a lesser extent tinsley) are not good enough to warrant planting burks on the bench for dnp's
    Myth. Burks played very close to the average of players taken 10-14 over the last several years. He also played little in the front of the season as there was no training camp to teach him the offense Once he learned his minutes went up significantly, on average. If you're dying for a reason to hang TyCo shouldn't you at least be factual and honest about it?


    Put some respeck in my paycheck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Notes View Post
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    Couple things.

    I don't know how Hayward gets used as an example of a guy who was being robbed of minutes. He averaged over 30 mpg last season. It's not just you, but for some reason there is a haunting assumption around here that somehow Bell and Howard were killing the guy's development. Just had to get that out.

    Anyways the main example I was talking about was the https://www.basketball-reference.com.../CHI/2005.html 2004 Bulls.

    Chandler(2nd overall)& Curry(4th overall) at 3 years, Heinrich (7th) a year in, Ben Gordon (3rd) & Luol Deng (7th) rookies. This team also sported 3 other non-lottery rooks. Now, in hindsight, not all of those guys were going to be great but basically with most of this core they got good enough to get stomped by the Pistons in the EC semis the next year, just one appearance. This is who I see when I think of the vision of Wes/Freak who would have loved to have jettisoned all the veterans and tanked last year to hopefully get both draft picks.

    My point being, no matter how lottery picks you assemble, unless one of them is a transcendent talent as a prospect ala Derrick Rose (whom the Bulls eventually got of course after repeating the Wes cycle several times) you aren't going anywhere with them and playing them starter minutes simply seasons the players for their next destination.

    Also, whether you are a supporter of Ty or not, he is probably the only coach in the league who was going to continue to attempt to implement the Flex, and if you play a bunch of noobs you can't run any real offense. Thibs and Brooks emphasize D but offensively it's just give the ball to the star and work it out amongst yourselves. Those players aren't learning to play San Antonio ball (or Sloan Ball). Of course the Corbin offense looks like garbage a lot of the time but he is trying to have one. In that regard Foye is hands down better than Burks since he plays and has an impact within the system. This is moot of course if, like Wes, you decided from day 1 that Corbin is a failure but personally I believe it's just as important to develop (install) a system as developing the players themselves. I do like what Ty is trying to do, emphasizing transition and moving into flex sets if it isn't there. Like I said earlier this year he doesn't get a free pass but I want to see what this thing looks like when its put together. Right now it's running like a project car with a loose distributor.

    Anyways IMO rather than worry too much about how much good we can do for the players, we should be looking to package some of those assets with a starter for a much better player somebody else developed. Let the other guy play the lottery game. I'd be way more into this kind of thing if the D league was a true farm system but unfortunately the lottery teams are the farm.
    What team is going to trade this player they developed (who is an upgrade over our C+ guys) to us? Teams are just giving great players away now? Good to know. Or are you just looking for a marginally solid player like Hayward and Marvin? I mean, if that's the case, I'm sure we could trick some teams into swapping a couple of said studs to us.

    How long do you give Ty? He's been the HC for a year and a half now. I suppose we should just shut our mouths and let him continue to fumble around? Maybe another Spurs' sweep with Jefferson acting as the revolving door will wake you the **** up? Or maybe once Millsap walks, you'll figure out Ty was ****ing things up. Or maybe once Favors does? How long do we wait?

    Right now, it's not a project car with a loose distributor. It's a project car and Ty doesn't know what the **** is wrong with it, how to fix it, and where the hell he'd like to drive it.

  9. #58
    Premium Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown Notes View Post
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    I agree Burks ought to be playing even if it's just 5 minutes. I don't agree with everything Corbs does. Favors should NO QUESTION be finishing every game and we probably would have won on Saturday if he had. Burks' situation is frustrating because he looks like the kind of guy who could be that Alpha scorer to replace Al's role.

    But I'm starting to think he's more DeRozan than Wade.
    I hope he's more wade (thats what i was thinking when we drafted him) but you are probably right with the derozan comparison..... which wouldn't be the worst thing ever but definately not what i was hoping for.

  10. #59
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    The Corbin hire was boneheaded wishful-thinking. There's a reason teams hire interim THEN do research and make a decision. Maybe he ends up working out and maybe he doesn't, but so far I am not impressed. The Jazz didn't have to immediately extend him, and that they chose to shows how amateur this organization can be at times.

    That said, Corbin has no easy choices to make with minute distribution. If he starts benching vets hard like everyone wants then the players' trade value gets murdered. KOC/Lindsey need to step up and clear some timber. Plain and simple. KOC probably should've done that last year, but that he hasn't yet (Al specifically) is a huge mistake.

    And for the record, I haven't really watched any games this year and I don't really give a ****.
    "Adversity is opportunity in disguise."

  11. #60
    Senior Member Thee jazz fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DutchJazzer View Post
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    nah we just have to gut corbin and jefferson and Millsap.
    their fixed.

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