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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzSpazz View Post
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    That would just delay the inevitable.
    Inevitable what?

    Quote Originally Posted by JazzSpazz View Post
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    Have the Fed print more money, borrow it,
    I've already explained how this is not borrowed money. It also only adds to the national debt as a technicality; it isn't actual debt and costs nothing other than the sweat of the labor it is used to fund.

    Quote Originally Posted by JazzSpazz View Post
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    spend it to get people working on temporary projects, inflation,
    Yes. Inflation is a blessing when money is vanishing and the country is collapsing. Why would we let our economy collapse?
    Supply-side in inflationary induced recessions and demand-side in deflationary induced ones. It's simple.


    Put some respeck in my paycheck

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  3. #42
    Inconceivable Jazz Spazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    Inevitable what?



    I've already explained how this is not borrowed money. It also only adds to the national debt as a technicality; it isn't actual debt and costs nothing other than the sweat of the labor it is used to fund.



    Yes. Inflation is a blessing when money is vanishing and the country is collapsing. Why would we let our economy collapse?
    Supply-side in inflationary induced recessions and demand-side in deflationary induced ones. It's simple.
    Ok... being serious here.

    If it's not actual debt, how much of our national debt is not actual debt. Does that mean we do not have to pay it back, and how much of our national debt do we have to pay back?

    How and why is money vanishing, and where is it going?

    The Federal Reserve Bank and other central banks were set up to ensure stability and stop the runs on banks/depressions/recessions and all of that. Has it worked, and if so did they dampen the blow from 2008? Could they have prevented 2008? Did they help cause 2008 as the banks have been accused of helping cause many of the other depressed and recessed economy issues in the past?
    Gobert has a serious defensive gravity.

  4. #43
    Senior Member TheSilencer1313's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    I've already explained how this is not borrowed money. It also only adds to the national debt as a technicality; it isn't actual debt and costs nothing other than the sweat of the labor it is used to fund.
    It seems that your definition of debt and money are about the same of that of Ben Bernanke's thinking. Which is the complete antithesis of historical economic law.
    So I'm also guessing that you believe this current central bank (as well as all connected central banks around the world) can avoid the historical precedent of their respective economies completely collapsing?



    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    Yes. Inflation is a blessing when money is vanishing and the country is collapsing. Why would we let our economy collapse?
    Haha wow.
    So now you're saying that inflation leading to higher prices, is actually the savior of our economy? Or where you leading to believe the land itself would actually collapse?

    "We the people" wouldn't let our economy collapse, but federal reserve bankers with nothing to lose, and everything to gain could care less.

    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    Supply-side in inflationary induced recessions and demand-side in deflationary induced ones. It's simple.
    Very interesting how simple it can be.
    I suppose we better listen to the architects of similar central bank run economies throughout the years.

    The Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Stallinist Russia, and of course we could also lean toward studying the creator of that central ideal itself Karl Marx.
    "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilencer1313 View Post
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    It seems that your definition of debt and money are about the same of that of Ben Bernanke's thinking.
    Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilencer1313 View Post
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    Which is the complete antithesis of historical economic law.
    So are computers and energy. I don't want to go back to cave dwelling and eating grubs from underneath rocks. Have fun with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilencer1313 View Post
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    So I'm also guessing that you believe this current central bank (as well as all connected central banks around the world) can avoid the historical precedent of their respective economies completely collapsing?
    And what precedent would that be? The one where aliens gave the Egyptian Pharaohs secret technology to run their central banks with?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilencer1313 View Post
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    So now you're saying that inflation leading to higher prices, is actually the savior of our economy?
    Technically it is reflation. & yes, stopping economic collapse is a good thing. You really are trying hard for that old cave man system, aren't you.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilencer1313 View Post
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    "We the people" wouldn't let our economy collapse,
    I don't believe in utopian fairy tails. Communism, anarchism, your Glenn Beckian Puritan utopia... they all fail within a generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilencer1313 View Post
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    but federal reserve bankers with nothing to lose, and everything to gain could care less.
    Inert objects don't have feelings. Regardless, the Federal Reserve just saved us from collapse.




    Quote Originally Posted by TheSilencer1313 View Post
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    Very interesting how simple it can be.
    I suppose we better listen to the architects of similar central bank run economies throughout the years.

    The Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Stallinist Russia, and of course we could also lean toward studying the creator of that central ideal itself Karl Marx.
    Another fairy tale. Those systems had next to nothing in common with the American economic machine. For example, the Weimar Republic -- which Glenn Beck has frightened you into believing is a pattern for the US collapse -- owed almost 800% of GDP as war reparations payable in gold bullion to outside nations. They used to teach this war reparations narrative in elementary history....I don't know why Glenn "why don't they teach history anymore" Beck is leading you all astray with his revisionist narrative. Anyway, back to Weimar, owing that much to an outside entity in a currency form you have no way of obtaining would bankrupt anyone. We, on the other hand, have a printing press to pay outside creditors and will print them into submission when we finally decide we need them to spend our dollars back into our economy.


    Put some respeck in my paycheck

  6. #45
    Senior Member Duck Rodgers's Avatar
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    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-tax-rate.html

    Almost two-thirds of the country’s million-pound earners disappeared from Britain after the introduction of the 50p top rate of tax, figures have disclosed.

  7. #46
    Senior Member TheSilencer1313's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    Probably.
    Oh yeah, and gold and silver are not money either.


    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    So are computers and energy. I don't want to go back to cave dwelling and eating grubs from underneath rocks. Have fun with that.
    Yes yes, we know. We are such a progressive species nowdays, and have changed so much.



    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    And what precedent would that be? The one where aliens gave the Egyptian Pharaohs secret technology to run their central banks with?
    Funny little quip.
    The most obvious historical precedents would be ancient Rome and the Soviet Union.



    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    Technically it is reflation. & yes, stopping economic collapse is a good thing. You really are trying hard for that old cave man system, aren't you.
    Tell that to half of the customers I meet in Tooele county that do not have jobs. I'm sure they'll believe you when you say the economy is getting better.



    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    I don't believe in utopian fairy tails. Communism, anarchism, your Glenn Beckian Puritan utopia... they all fail within a generation.
    What's with the Glenn Beck junk? Do you listen to that guy or what?
    A little too mainstream for myself.



    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    Inert objects don't have feelings. Regardless, the Federal Reserve just saved us from collapse.
    They haven't saved us from anything, just prolonged the bubble like they always do.
    Meanwhile the price of gas will continue to rise, along with food ect. Ect.






    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    Another fairy tale. Those systems had next to nothing in common with the American economic machine. For example, the Weimar Republic -- which Glenn Beck has frightened you into believing is a pattern for the US collapse -- owed almost 800% of GDP as war reparations payable in gold bullion to outside nations. They used to teach this war reparations narrative in elementary history....I don't know why Glenn "why don't they teach history anymore" Beck is leading you all astray with his revisionist narrative. Anyway, back to Weimar, owing that much to an outside entity in a currency form you have no way of obtaining would bankrupt anyone. We, on the other hand, have a printing press to pay outside creditors and will print them into submission when we finally decide we need them to spend our dollars back into our economy.
    I know nothing of this Weimar Republic, and since it was obviously no where near the size and scope of the United States, it sounds like a country no where comparable to this one.
    You're also forgetting that eventually countries will stop taking that worthless paper coming from the printing press.
    Most countries no longer use the dollar as their top reserve currency anymore, as well as the U.S.'s downgraded credit rating. Things will steadily continue to decline, and there's nothing the Fed can do about it if they wanted to.
    "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson

  8. #47
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    Alright Spazz, I finally have an answer to give. I’ve been debating on whether or not to add how the concepts of money creation were used to build the Puritan Work Ethic and why the American Founding decided that was something to be respected, but, as with everything else, protected against with progressive taxation, laws against primogeniture and entail, anti-trust, and inheritance taxes. That was a little too much so I chopped it out.


    Quote Originally Posted by JazzSpazz View Post
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    If it's not actual debt, how much of our national debt is not actual debt. Does that mean we do not have to pay it back, and how much of our national debt do we have to pay back?
    The portion on the Federal Reserve's balance sheet is not debt. The rest is. What happens is the Fed uses funny accounting to create money out of thin air and they buy US Treasuries with it. This is called base or high powered money, and is the actual cash in the system from which we build upon.

    It may look like we are indebted to the Fed but the Fed returns all of the interest paid by the US Treasury right back to the US Treasury annually. The "debt" could be wiped out with the stroke of a keyboard but is not for functional reasons and because doing so could hurt the integrity of our currency.


    Quote Originally Posted by JazzSpazz View Post
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    How and why is money vanishing, and where is it going?
    Most of our money is created by the market as debt through the fractional reserve process. Fractional reserve banking can be regulated and minimized to some extent but it is never extinguished in any monetary system. It's also necessary to have a functional modern economy as it is the main money creating mechanism. In a deflation/depression, money flow seizes and there is no money to earn and service debt payments with. Debts get defaulted on, which is another way of saying money vanishes from the system. It becomes a self-reinforcing cycle where less and less money is available to service debt, &, as debt becomes ever more risky due to default risk, the bank balance sheets face risk of insolvency. If we do nothing then banks collapse and so does the economy. The result is a stone aged, highly inefficient barter based economy where everyone fends for themselves a la The Great Depression.

    Enter the Fed. See my 'discount window' comments above. In addition, as the main assistance function, the Fed buys even more UST's in order to lower interest rates and spur economic growth.


    Quote Originally Posted by JazzSpazz View Post
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    The Federal Reserve Bank and other central banks were set up to ensure stability and stop the runs on banks/depressions/recessions and all of that. Has it worked, and if so did they dampen the blow from 2008? Could they have prevented 2008? Did they help cause 2008 as the banks have been accused of helping cause many of the other depressed and recessed economy issues in the past?
    Central banks are intended to smooth the cycle but aren't immune to it, & sure as hell aren't immune to our own hubris or political stupidity. They also aren't enough in severe collapses because they can't directly create demand. All the most influential thinkers have tried to imagine up systems that don't require government intervention but every single one of them has failed to find a market-based solution. Eventually every one of them turned back toward government intervention as vital to saving the country (i.e. Milton Friedman toyed around with a full reserve banking concept but scrapped it).


    Put some respeck in my paycheck

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