12-18-2012, 04:08 AM
There's a whole lot of common sense missing in this. I wouldn't imagine there aren't already laws on the books adequate to deal with this situation. School policy will probably require the kid to be kicked out, held back, or put in some juvenile offender sort of sitch. . . . The parents are likely to face charges of several types, including I imagine negligent endangerment of school children. They could face proceedings to terminate their parental rights. . . . .
Where the hell are the parents? Why the hell don't they lock their weapons up?
In days gone by, the kid would have been relieved of his gun, and his parents expected to discipline him. .. . in terms that would register the severity of the offense permanently perhaps. A good school teacher would have said. . . . "I can understand your anxiety, Bobby. . . . except what the hell do you think your classmates are going to do when you point this at their heads?"
The official action in this case should be on par with that which bearing any weapon and threatening other children with it would be.
a few pages back, I said the shooter in CT was a victim of our times. Let me explain that a bit. We have a lot of psychiatric drugs that are being shown by events like shootings to have in some people an effect of completely scrambling their moral reasoning. . . . the inhibitions that ordinarily prevent extreme or rash or violent behavior. The kid in CT, still a "kid" at 20, was on these drugs. His mother was worried, complaining to whoever would listen, that she was afraid, and that something was terribly wrong. He could not feel pain. Some disconnect was going on in his brain.
Yet we are mass medicating our whole population with these drugs, often over fairly trivial concerns. Rather than using restrained and reasoned disciplinary measures designed to reinforce consideration of actions and their effects and the responsibility of our kids to learn to treat others with respect.
I think imagining that we can legislate common sense while refusing to effectively teach moral personal accountability is in itself a social illness in those who think that's the way to go, which I would label "profound lack of common sense". And relying on medications which have side effects of impairing our mental processes of moral or whatever reasoning it takes to project a link between our line of contemplated conduct, and our responsibilities to others. . . . .is way out there. "overprescription of psychiatric drugs syndrome" is a mental illness that ought to be considered fair reason to terminate professional practice of psychiatry. . . . or school health counseling. . . .
kids pick locks. the CT shooter broke through the security doors. The local parents of the 11-yr old kid have, probably, lost their kids from this. . . . when the legal process grinds out it's verdicts. . .. and hundreds of thousands in legal costs, if they have it. They are probably bankrupt. There are already too many damned stupid laws, and the more laws you make, the stupider people will get. . . . you're not going to accomplish anything with this. . . .
Gun Control can start with making it a felony for not having their guns locked up. I believe these parents have lost their 2nd amendment rights. We could have easily had another tragedy. Take the guns away from these dumbass irresponsible parents and fine the hell out of them.
CT has some of the strongest laws on the books of any state. The mom of the CT shooter apparently gave her life to try to stop her kid. Probably the next fifty or one hundred parents worried about a psychiatric patient kid on Prosac or whatever will take the guns out of the house, store them in a place the kid doesn't know about, leave the key with a friend in the next state. . . . . I mean if we weren't being dumbed down and strung out on medications wholesale to the effect that nobody has any common sense or personal reasoning anymore. . . .
12-18-2012 04:08 AM
12-18-2012, 06:33 AM
I promised myself I wasn't going to comment on this for a while, so I gave it a few days.
The full on attack on gun rights by the left is downright scary. I put on MSNBC for a bit yesterday and it's literally all they talked about.
My take is this, gun control is fine, but only if you impose the same restrictions on EVERYONE. Don't tell me I can't have an assault rifle, but give the police an unlimited supply of assault rifles.
One law for everyone, that's real justice, right?
There are way too many guns out there to try to control them now. A large portion of gun crimes committed are done by people who are already restricted from owning a gun.
Criminals absolutely will get guns. If you make them illegal, you're only taking them away from the good guys.
Put a school cop in every school. That would have been way more effective than banning assault rifles in this case.
By the way, you can make your own guns with a 3d printer these days. If you outlaw guns, you'll only be creating a huge black market for criminals to get them without restriction. We already have a pretty big black market for that, just imagine if the local street thug selling them was making millions.
It's a terrible idea.
12-18-2012, 09:18 AM
Who's going to pay for the cops? You know as well as I know how cheap our state is when it comes to education and the police department. Hell, wasn't SLCPD facing cuts and possible layoffs just a year ago?
Originally Posted by SaltyDawg
When you can't raise taxes.... And you drastically need to increase spending... But you don't have the revenue... What are we supposed to do?
Many schools in Utah don't even have AC. And yet some of you are suggesting putting metal detectors, bullet proof glass, and now cops at every school?
We're already dead last in per-pupil funding.
Soooooo where's this money gonna come from? Even a tiny school district like Provo has... What... 8? Elementary schools? That's 8 cops right there. 3 Jr. highs? 11 new cops. The 2 HS's already have cops...
11 new cops. Pay them 40k each... Plus benefits... Well, we can all do the math...
Imagine what the cost is going to be like for bigger districts, such as Alpine, Davis, Or Jordan!!!
You best be ready for a heavy tax increase....
Or... A solution might be bringing the damn troops home to protect our own borders, schools, and malls... But that would mean we wouldn't be able to police the world without a draft....
12-18-2012, 09:28 AM
I just looked up there are about 94,000 elementary and secondary schools in the US. https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/overvie...es/table_2.asp
Originally Posted by SaltyDawg
That would cost us less than $10bln @ $100,000 total cost per job. That's probably cheaper than enforcing more gun control laws, and much more effective. Get it done. Hell, fund two officers per school.
Put some respeck in my paycheck
12-18-2012, 09:51 AM
I think you nailed it. Bring the troops home, retrain them, and send them to the schools.
Originally Posted by The Thriller
I'm also totally in favor of raising taxes, especially on the wealthiest.
And I'm in favor of bringing a lottery to Utah to raise even more revenue.
And I'm in favor of legalizing marijuana for even more revenue.
Heck we could legalize casinos for even more revenue.
There are plenty of untapped revenue streams available. The solution isn't to start taking away freedoms.
Remember when the republicans were pushing the patriot act, and all the democrats were quoting Ben Franklin, saying "Those who sacrifice freedom in the name of security deserve neither," (or whatever the exact quote was). That goes both ways.
I think you nailed it though. If we do anything at all about this problem, it's either going to cost more money, which means tapping into revenue streams republicans have previously been against (which should have already been legal if we're truly free), raising taxes that republicans have been against, or banning guns.
I'm all for any of them, except banning the guns. And I could be swayed on the guns as long as they were also being banned for the police, military, and every other American. If there's a case for them to have them, then the same case can be made for me, you, and any other legal American.
12-18-2012, 09:56 AM
Also, some of those schools already have a school cop, so it would be even cheaper.
Originally Posted by franklin
It's troubling to me that the left isn't even discussing this, they went straight to a full court press on gun control.
It almost makes me wonder what's happening that I'm missing. This gun control distraction has to be the perfect distraction for something else. There's no net neutrality bill or outsourcing treaty set to expire is there?
12-18-2012, 09:59 AM
I'm actually ok with this idea, as it would work out just fine to have one to two officers in each school. This will never happen, but it's a good avenue to look towards.
Originally Posted by franklin
Metal detectors, bulletproof glass? What are we turning our schools into a police state now as well?
Also, if a teacher or principal has a permit and training to carry, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't be able to carry at work as well. If certain teachers do not want to, then to each their own.
Personally I would feel safer with my kids around a responsible teacher with a conceal and carry permit, than I would with them around some new age progressive that believes we can talk everything out in horrible situations.
So in retrospect, get the officer idea done.... and cut wasteful spending in order to make it so.
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson
12-18-2012, 10:03 AM
Alot of local school already have arrangements with their local police depts. My high school in Mississippi always had an officer on campus. Usually their car was parked right out front and they would be in that or the front office. We never had a problem on campus but they set that up with the local PD anyways.
To be honest it was kind of comforting knowing an officer was on site. They (at least 1) came to every school event we had. Sports games, field day, graduation, prom...
12-18-2012, 10:09 AM
Consider four points. 1. We're paying unemployment to millions of people who want to work. A large chunk of the money could come straight out of the extended benefits program. 2. These are stable jobs that lower overall unemployment costs and also help smooth business cycle fluctuations. 3. New legislation will be expensive to implement and enforce. 4. Deterrence saves money. It's hard to measure exactly how much, but this will save costs across the spectrum. For example, simply having an officer at schools full time will lower the burden on local juvenile courts.
Originally Posted by TheSilencer1313
Put some respeck in my paycheck
12-18-2012, 10:38 AM
I really like this leg of the discussion here.
I wouldn't even squawk about the tax, the cop presence, and such. . . . . . my only reservation is to comment about the attitude of "public service" of this type. I think we need cops who are public-friendly as much as trained and capable to prevent harm or committed to protecting the kids and general public, not trained on just=== and I mean "just"====snap reflexive shooting at every sensory trigger. . . . .. and we need schoolteachers who better understand the value of true education as opposed to "trained to the task" compliance management as well. . . . .
but the economics of prevention is an absolutely compelling truth. Insurance companies understand this truth. They are always lobbying for anything that will reduce their payout on a statistical basis. Like gambling casinos know, the odds rule. . . .and the old proverb is an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of "cure". . . . in this case the cost of prevention is heavily offset with the kinds of savings Franklin is alluding to. . . . and there's also the medical costs that statistically would be saved as well, which is statistically significant. . . . as well as "collateral" benefits.
cops and kids could get a good start in some positive relations. I bet some areas would have lots of retired cops looking for jobs like this, too.
so here we have an avenue that would not affect responsible gunowners, and that would probably have strong support from them as well as parents and law enforcement. I say "go" on this.