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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    Definitely. Media was calling for Doc Rivers' scalp on a stick. Then he won a championship.
    Personally, I applaud your efforts pushing for the same. I can't stand it when CoTy's offense executes the same sets as Popp, Phil, Sloan, and all the greats, but the Jazz just don't have players to do it right. Pisses me off royally. Royally! We need FIRE^ to channel our frustrations through because if we didn't then we'd sour on Jazz Basketball. Now where's that what is jazz bball thread uggh?
    The mark of a good coach is to model the offense around what he does have, not force players to become something they aren't. For all Sloan's greatness, that was his ultimate downfall, especially on defense. He pretended he always had an Eaton inside, and held onto the philosophy of funneling penetrators to the inside. Offensively, he wanted to run the P&R and kick out to a SG if the play was stopped. Problem was, in his last season he didn't have a great PF, nor did he have a SG who could hit shots. Not excusing Deron for his actions, but I think that was one of the reason Williams finally revolted; he knew Sloan's plays weren't working with the personnel the team had.

    Corbin refuses to change the offense. He refuses to play the youngsters more, even though they're outplaying the "starters." Ty keeps insisting the ball be thrown into Jefferson, three times on a possession if needed. And it's so easy to defend. Every team in the league knows when to throw a double at Al...you let him fake to his left, overplay a bit to shut down the move to the middle, then send a big guy baseline because Al is going to turn right into it.

    The ONLY time Corbin has adjusted is when Al was hurt. Then we saw great ball movement. We saw all 5 guys hitting shots. Marvin is a great shooter, but he never gets a chance in this offense. And bloody hell, does Ty ever coach these guys on shutting down the 3? Everyone is completely commited to playing inside the arc. Our 3-pt defense consists of running out at the opposition after the ball is already on it's way.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by franklin View Post
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    Definitely. Media was calling for Doc Rivers' scalp on a stick. Then he won a championship.
    Personally, I applaud your efforts pushing for the same. I can't stand it when CoTy's offense executes the same sets as Popp, Phil, Sloan, and all the greats, but the Jazz just don't have players to do it right. Pisses me off royally. Royally! We need FIRE^ to channel our frustrations through because if we didn't then we'd sour on Jazz Basketball. Now where's that what is jazz bball thread uggh?
    I respect that you have a different opinion. But honestly, don't you wonder what the Carlisle's or Thib's could do with the same talent we have? Or look at Skiles. Do you honestly think Milwaukee has more talent up and down their roster than we do? I don't even think Golden State has more talent than us.

    I like Ty. But I don't think he's a pro coach and certainly not the guy to lead the next generation once Favors/Kanter replace Al/Sap.

  4. #13
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    Im partially with Franklin here. I cant put all the blame on Corbin. He didnt assemble the roster, and he doesnt make the trades. Management is pratically forcing him to play Al and Paul in the starting line up. But on the other hand, Corbin has shown to be a less than stellar coach. He has made plenty of late game mistakes.

    For some reason though, almost this entire board is against criticizing management. Its baffling. Management assembles the team and hires the coach, but yet this whole board complains about all of it and at the same time will fight ya to the death over how good management is. I just dont get it.


    I think this whole Ty hatred thing does have an element of racism to it. Not all people here, but probably a lot. I think if KOC was black, then this board would have no problem tearing him a new one.

    Haha

    Am I right? Or am I right?

  5. #14
    Premium Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hack View Post
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    Im partially with Franklin here. I cant put all the blame on Corbin. He didnt assemble the roster, and he doesnt make the trades. Management is pratically forcing him to play Al and Paul in the starting line up. But on the other hand, Corbin has shown to be a less than stellar coach. He has made plenty of late game mistakes.

    For some reason though, almost this entire board is against criticizing management. Its baffling. Management assembles the team and hires the coach, but yet this whole board complains about all of it and at the same time will fight ya to the death over how good management is. I just dont get it.


    I think this whole Ty hatred thing does have an element of racism to it. Not all people here, but probably a lot. I think if KOC was black, then this board would have no problem tearing him a new one.

    Haha

    Am I right? Or am I right?
    Ok hack, management sucks too.

    However tonight while im watching the game and i see corbin not calling timeouts when he should, not making adjustments, having bad substitution patterns, failing to implement an effective offense etc etc etc, i doubt i will be wishing KOC would call a timeout and make the proper substitutions.

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
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    Ok hack, management sucks too.

    However tonight while im watching the game and i see corbin not calling timeouts when he should, not making adjustments, having bad substitution patterns, failing to implement an effective offense etc etc etc, i doubt i will be wishing KOC would call a timeout and make the proper substitutions.

    Ya but I bet you wish someone would be moved to make some playing time for Favors or Kanter.

    Im just saying that it would have been nice to try and get something for Al and Paul while they had value. Instead of trying to field a flawed team and try to make a stupid run at the playoffs with a team that clearly isnt built right. Al and Paul clearly dont play well together for whatever reason. Everybody can see except management and Ty. We have enough bigs. We could have tried to cash in one of those assets for a pick or two, or get help somewhere else. And yes they had value last year. I bet anything we could have got something good for Al or Paul. Now we wont get crap for them and we are stuck watching this crap for the rest of the year. It just shows management's ineptness for understanding what it takes to build a team that can actually compete for a championship. They just arent aggressive enough for my taste.

  7. #16
    Premium Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hack View Post
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    Ya but I bet you wish someone would be moved to make some playing time for Favors or Kanter.

    Im just saying that it would have been nice to try and get something for Al and Paul while they had value. Instead of trying to field a flawed team and try to make a stupid run at the playoffs with a team that clearly isnt built right. Al and Paul clearly dont play well together for whatever reason. Everybody can see except management and Ty. We have enough bigs. We could have tried to cash in one of those assets for a pick or two, or get help somewhere else. And yes they had value last year. I bet anything we could have got something good for Al or Paul. Now we wont get crap for them and we are stuck watching this crap for the rest of the year. It just shows management's ineptness for understanding what it takes to build a team that can actually compete for a championship. They just arent aggressive enough for my taste.
    I do wish someone would be moved... however i have no idea what trades are be proposed, so i dont know if KOC is doing the right thing or not.
    To place blame on KOC involves me guessing on whether or not he is doing things right.
    Placing blame on corbin involves me watching the games and seeing his mistakes all the time.

    Koc may have gotten foye to be a spark for 15 minutes a game off the bench, or maybe he knew foye would be a starter and get 28 minutes a game... again i have no idea. All i can see is that corbin plays him too much.

    It unreasonable to be mad at KOC for the way the games are coached, and that is the part that i get to witness so corbin gets my blame.

    If i was witnessing KOC turning miami down when they offer lebron for jefferson, then i would be very pissed at KOC and there would be "fire koc" threads all over jazzfanz. But the fact is, we dont get to witness the trades being discussed.
    I think we won the D-will trade, and the devin harris trade, and KOC has drafted pretty good. He screwed up on matthews, i liked him matching on millsap, and i was ok with letting cj and ak go.
    So from what i have been able to SEE, he has done pretty good imo.

  8. #17
    Senior Member WhiskyPriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoTown16 View Post
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    The mark of a good coach is to model the offense around what he does have, not force players to become something they aren't. For all Sloan's greatness, that was his ultimate downfall, especially on defense. He pretended he always had an Eaton inside, and held onto the philosophy of funneling penetrators to the inside. Offensively, he wanted to run the P&R and kick out to a SG if the play was stopped. Problem was, in his last season he didn't have a great PF, nor did he have a SG who could hit shots. Not excusing Deron for his actions, but I think that was one of the reason Williams finally revolted; he knew Sloan's plays weren't working with the personnel the team had.

    Corbin refuses to change the offense. He refuses to play the youngsters more, even though they're outplaying the "starters." Ty keeps insisting the ball be thrown into Jefferson, three times on a possession if needed. And it's so easy to defend. Every team in the league knows when to throw a double at Al...you let him fake to his left, overplay a bit to shut down the move to the middle, then send a big guy baseline because Al is going to turn right into it.

    The ONLY time Corbin has adjusted is when Al was hurt. Then we saw great ball movement. We saw all 5 guys hitting shots. Marvin is a great shooter, but he never gets a chance in this offense. And bloody hell, does Ty ever coach these guys on shutting down the 3? Everyone is completely commited to playing inside the arc. Our 3-pt defense consists of running out at the opposition after the ball is already on it's way.
    Although I agree with you completely when criticizing Sloan's defense, Sloan's offense did adapt to his personnel (just not as much as we would have liked). An example that springs to mind is that we never ran the pick and pop until we had Mehmet Okur. Plus, the flex offense worked great with cutters like Brewer and AK47. Our greatest mistake was giving Sloan a big man who needed the ball in the low post, but was horrible at running the pick and roll (Al). I do agree with you that Sloan's stubbornness was his downfall, however, I think he was more stubborn when it came to in-game-strategy and rotations and his blind devotion of never defending the three point line.

  9. #18
    Senior Member WhiskyPriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
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    I do wish someone would be moved... however i have no idea what trades are be proposed, so i dont know if KOC is doing the right thing or not.
    To place blame on KOC involves me guessing on whether or not he is doing things right.
    Placing blame on corbin involves me watching the games and seeing his mistakes all the time.

    Koc may have gotten foye to be a spark for 15 minutes a game off the bench, or maybe he knew foye would be a starter and get 28 minutes a game... again i have no idea. All i can see is that corbin plays him too much.

    It unreasonable to be mad at KOC for the way the games are coached, and that is the part that i get to witness so corbin gets my blame.

    If i was witnessing KOC turning miami down when they offer lebron for jefferson, then i would be very pissed at KOC and there would be "fire koc" threads all over jazzfanz. But the fact is, we dont get to witness the trades being discussed.
    I think we won the D-will trade, and the devin harris trade, and KOC has drafted pretty good. He screwed up on matthews, i liked him matching on millsap, and i was ok with letting cj and ak go.
    So from what i have been able to SEE, he has done pretty good imo.
    I absolutely agree with you (that it is easier to blame the coaching staff). However, we've had this problem long before Corbin. Corbin shares Sloan's mentality when it comes to rookies. If the rookie is drafted in the lottery = Bad, he needs to benched, especially for a vet. However, if we draft a scrappy rookie in the second round = good, give this rookie as much time as he needs to develop (e.g. Millsap and Matthews)

    What we need to do is eliminate this mentality from our organization. We have had tons of POTENTIAL with our big four rookies, and we are squandering it away for mediocrity. Note: I am not claiming that our rookies will reach their potential. I am just stating that they have it.

    Heck... we'll probably get rid of Millsap and Jefferson and then sign Elton Brand who would immediately become our starter. <---- This is how cynical I have become with the Jazz organization.

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishonjazz View Post
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    I do wish someone would be moved... however i have no idea what trades are be proposed, so i dont know if KOC is doing the right thing or not.
    To place blame on KOC involves me guessing on whether or not he is doing things right.
    Placing blame on corbin involves me watching the games and seeing his mistakes all the time.

    Koc may have gotten foye to be a spark for 15 minutes a game off the bench, or maybe he knew foye would be a starter and get 28 minutes a game... again i have no idea. All i can see is that corbin plays him too much.

    It unreasonable to be mad at KOC for the way the games are coached, and that is the part that i get to witness so corbin gets my blame.

    If i was witnessing KOC turning miami down when they offer lebron for jefferson, then i would be very pissed at KOC and there would be "fire koc" threads all over jazzfanz. But the fact is, we dont get to witness the trades being discussed.
    I think we won the D-will trade, and the devin harris trade, and KOC has drafted pretty good. He screwed up on matthews, i liked him matching on millsap, and i was ok with letting cj and ak go.
    So from what i have been able to SEE, he has done pretty good imo.
    Well we may not see whats going on, but do you not believe that Al and Paul had some value around the league? I do. What the hell is going on there? Why is this over load group of bigs still together?

    You guys may think these guys dont have any value, but they do. Just look at how bad people hated Boozer, and Chicago couldnt wait to sign him up. Now they realized their mistake and want to dump him. Look at AK. Fans around here thought he wasn't worth squat, then minnesota gives him 10 mil a year. The value is/was there. Problem is KOC thinks Al is going to lead us to the promise land.

  11. #20
    Premium Member fishonjazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hack View Post
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    Well we may not see whats going on, but do you not believe that Al and Paul had some value around the league? I do. What the hell is going on there? Why is this over load group of bigs still together?

    You guys may think these guys dont have any value, but they do. Just look at how bad people hated Boozer, and Chicago couldnt wait to sign him up. Now they realized their mistake and want to dump him. Look at AK. Fans around here thought he wasn't worth squat, then minnesota gives him 10 mil a year. The value is/was there. Problem is KOC thinks Al is going to lead us to the promise land.
    The other reason corbin gets way more criticism than koc is because koc only makes moves or drafts once in a while.... when he drafted hayward he was booed and criticized like crazy..... when he let mo williams go the first time he was criticized.... when he let matthews go he was criticized..... etc etc. Basically when he screws up we bash him, but there are less oppurtunities for us to bash him. I guess we could make threads everyday saying "trade millsap or jefferson" but we do talk about trades quite often.

    With corbin we see his mistakes about 3 or 4 times per week so of course he will be criticized more, that is part of being a coach.... Im sure other teams forum talk trash about thier coaches just as much.

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