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  1. #11
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    Why is there any reverence for "Jazz history"? What have they done? I look in the list of champions and I do not see Utah Jazz listed.

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  3. #12
    Senior Member Lion's Roar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVC View Post
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    1. Malone was much better than Al at scoring (.577 v. .531 career TS%) and passing (17.6 v. 8.8 career assist%) the basketball.
    What are you trying to say? That Malone was a better player than Al Jefferson? Yeah that's correct. Probably why Karl was given the ball more often than Al.

    2. Oh...so you're the guy who used to glory in Portugal's history of subjugating foreign peoples.
    Not going to enter into much about this one unless you want to talk in another forum. But since you brought it up I am just going to say that Portugal had 1 Millions ppl in population and spread out to more than 50 countries. But to your knowledge because of the little population the Portuguese empire was established not trough annihilation of the indigenous ppl (like the Spanish and the English in America) but trough marriage and interbreeding with the natives. In fact most biracial mixes can be traced back to those times.

  4. #13
    Senior Member NUMBERICA's Avatar
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    Using Stockton and Malone as a way to make a relevant basketball comparison is the same as using Hitler to make a relevant political comparison. Both of them automatically disqualify the point you're making.

    And yes, I am aware of my signature. If you can't already understand the (fundamental) difference, I'm not going to help.
    "Adversity is opportunity in disguise."

  5. #14
    Junior Member yzbat's Avatar
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    I don't believe that the fans on this board are not excited for the future of this team. In fact it is that we might be to excited and want to see it the team going in the direction of the future. I have also been on this forum for quite a while but don't say much and just listen. But with the way that this team has been coached, to me it doesn't look like we are going in the direction of the future and looks like Ty has no clue what he is doing.
    The inconsistent lineups are what is killing me. You would think that 52 games into the season he would have some sort of consistency. There has been multiple times where the starters have dug a hole and the bench comes in to bring us back into it and he will then continue to put in what put us in the hole in the first place. This is why we lose a lot of the 4th quarters. Sorry for the rant but all the years that i have been a fan this year has been the most frustrating due to the coaching.

  6. #15
    Senior Member vslice02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion's Roar View Post
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    I was here during the Stockton and Malone days. I was here during the Deron/Boozer years and I'm still around altough mostly in the shadows and I'm not all that active anymore.
    And who are the ones that talk the most? The ones that are against the Status Quo. I know that's the case. I WAS ONCE the one bickering at the FO and arguing about some decisions.
    Hi there, Lion's Roar. I appreciate and respect the knowledge and opinions of all fans who go back to Stockton&Malone. Ironically - I was once a staunch defender of the organization and front office but since last February my frustration (primarily with coaching and player development) has reach an alltime high and I can't defend things I truly believe are mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lion's Roar View Post
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    Hi First of all a refresh on Jazz history:
    * Malone didn't start his first year. [1]
    * Stockton didn't start till his 4th year. [1]
    * S&M were ousted in the first round of the playoffs something like 5 times. [2]
    * It took S&M 13 years to reach the Finals. [2]
    * Even after playing 17 years together S&M only went to the WCF 5 times. [2]
    * The left block post up that fans like to really go after Al for was once a staple of the Jazz offense with Malone working from there. [3]
    * For many, MANY years the Jazz offense had little movement. There were no zone defenses allowed and the Jazz played the PnR on one side with the three other players (Eaton included) standing behind the 3 pt line on the other corner. (no one seemed to complain back then) [3]
    * I've seen time and again fans going after Sloan and now they act like he was some sort of wizard and should be back and that Ty is so, so bad although his team keeps winning. [4]
    .
    A couple disagreements w/your refresher in Jazz history.
    [1]-Stockton didn't start as a rookie - but the only rookie on the Jazz is Kevin Murphy (whom I doubt anyone thinks should be starting). Favors & Hayward are 3rd-year players, Kanter & Burks 2nd-year players. I'm oldschool and do think rookies should learn the ropes to an extent and pay their dues. After that though - if you can play you should be playing.

    [2]-Stockton & Malone set the bar in '88 when they took Magic&Kareem to 7 games in the Conf Semis. Right there, you knew they had the potential to compete at a championship level. Stock was 25, Malone 24 - and they were 2 of the best player's in the league. There's nobody in the Jazz starting lineup who leaves that type of impression - and certainly nobody you'd be willing to wait 13 years to deliver a finals appearance. The starting lineup is Mo Williams/RandyFoye/MarvinWilliams/Paul Millsap/AlJefferson. You can't possibly compare that to the early stages of Stockton & Malone.

    [3] The Jazz offense had less movement in the early 90's (before Hornacek arrived) not only because the talent level around Stockton&Malone was poorer, but because the rules favored iso-ball. Illegal defenses encouraged 1-on-1 play and allowed Malone to be singled up on the block. If you fronted him it was a layup. Now teams can play in front of and behind Al and unless you can execute the high-low (Sap&Al can't) you have 4th-quarters like we saw against Chicago Friday night. And once the Jazz replaced JeffMalone w/Hornacek - the ball movement was on another level. Malone became one of the best low-post passers in the game as well. We didn't stand and watch, we cut down the lane, the guards would split, we kept moving which made double-teams alot harder and less effective.

    [4]-I never understood why fans criticized Sloan (a much smaller minority than now) because he had a proven track record and system that we all knew worked. From Dick Motta to Jerry Sloan - it worked. Repetition of good habits = good. Repitition of something that's proven not to work = bad.
    It's obvious someone can make anything good sound bad and anything bad sound good. I think some of the criticism is over-the-top but it is what it is. It's not like everyone has it wrong and they simply don't understand what good basketball is.

    Bottom line for me is Utah began building for the future when they traded a top-12 NBA player - which I think was a potentially brilliant gamble. Two years later - they're marginalizing that entire trade under a bizarre "we want to win now" approach - and they're simply not good enough to win right now. Multiple seasons as a 7/8-seed w/out underlying growth is crippling in the NBA. (On a side note, I would argue many of our coaching decisions do not give Utah their best-chance to win but that's for another post). I agree there can and should be some balance in rebuilding between "tanking" and "trying to win" - but I think alot of fans would agree with me they're not seeing it right now.
    Last edited by vslice02; 02-12-2013 at 12:59 PM.
    "It's a loss. It's one loss on our home floor that we aren't happy with." -Ty Corbin, 12/26/12.
    "It's one loss." -Ty Corbin, 1/11/13.
    "Whether you lose by one or by 45 like we did tonight, it's one loss." -Ty Corbin, 1/28/13.
    "It's one loss." -Ty Corbin, 4/3/13.
    It's disappointing any time you don't make the playoffs." -Ty Corbin, 4/17/13.


  7. #16
    Senior Member Lion's Roar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zman1527 View Post
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    Why is there any reverence for "Jazz history"? What have they done? I look in the list of champions and I do not see Utah Jazz listed.
    Do you see the LA Clippers on that list? What about the Kings? Orlando and it's THREE #1 picks? Sometimes when you decide to go young and become really bad you only ensure that you're going to be bad for quite some time. Then you spend your time getting lottery picks to go and get Ekpe Udoh, Olowokandi, Jimmer, Darius Miles and the likes. This is uncharted territory that the Jazz are into. Let it play out. Just let it play out. Then I will join in the protests with you guys if the team fails badly. I'll probably be even more vocal then you guys.

  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion's Roar View Post
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    Hi there folks.



    * Malone didn't start his first year.
    * Stockton didn't start till his 4th year.
    Malone started 76 games his rookie year https://www.basketball-reference.com...malonka01.html
    Stockton despite not starting still played in every game. maybe the Jazz would have been better back then if Stockton would have started. Maybe Stockton's assist record would be even more unbreakable.

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion's Roar View Post
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    Do you see the LA Clippers on that list? What about the Kings? Orlando and it's THREE #1 picks? Sometimes when you decide to go young and become really bad you only ensure that you're going to be bad for quite some time. Then you spend your time getting lottery picks to go and get Ekpe Udoh, Olowokandi, Jimmer, Darius Miles and the likes. This is uncharted territory that the Jazz are into. Let it play out. Just let it play out. Then I will join in the protests with you guys if the team fails badly. I'll probably be even more vocal then you guys.
    You did not answer the question at all. Why the reverence for Jazz history? In the final analysis, it is fail. Yes, other are worse but still, why revere what has failed? I think peeps overestimate the glory of the Sloan years. Had some great teams yes but in the end no ring. THAT should be the bottom line takeaway: what they did then did NOT work.

  10. #19
    Senior Member Lion's Roar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dma View Post
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    Malone started 76 games his rookie year https://www.basketball-reference.com...malonka01.html
    You are right. I was wrong.

    Still Malone wasn't the #1 option. That was Dantley.

  11. #20
    Senior Member Lion's Roar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zman1527 View Post
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    You did not answer the question at all. Why the reverence for Jazz history? In the final analysis, it is fail. Yes, other are worse but still, why revere what has failed? I think peeps overestimate the glory of the Sloan years. Had some great teams yes but in the end no ring. THAT should be the bottom line takeaway: what they did then did NOT work.
    There's no reverence. At least from my part. The Jazz are on uncharted territory cause the players they had here were quite older. We don't know what this kind of thought process will result into. And oddly we can argue either way simply cause there's no way to prove or disprove if sitting the C4 is helping or not.

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