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Coronavirus

Well, as it is a COVID thread - then the knowledgable ones should also not cause any panic moment a la do not visit your parents (how can a virus free person infect their parents) etc etc. We had tiny debate in Estonia where people asked a document from a doctor, that they are in good shape (because some public sports competition events require it etc) and the answer was something like "we are not qualified". Well, if you recieve quite large per person taxpayer money per year - shouldn't you claim, that you have no expertise?

I have no idea about the discussion in Estonia. Regarding covid19, I thing the knowledgeable people should aim for engendering the appropriate amount of concern, and that you should keep in mind the difference between virus-free and symptom-free. Far from all infected people show symptoms.

IMHO there is a tendency specially in social media, that a lot of persons have an attitude "i am an expert, because i was in this or that university so you are automatically dumber than i", which is worrisome to me.

I understand. I know one poster on another board who tried to shut me down in a discussion about the nature of logic, because he had a PhD in applied mathematics. I was not impressed.

At the same time, expertise allows people to make connections and understand issues in a way not open to amateurs, and that needs to be respected.

No, although i graduated the Tallinn Technical University (IT Engineer) we did not had many energy related subjects. Still, based on those lessons and with some talking with the tutors, i would not be against to have nuclear plant in Estonia.

There are legitimate problems with nuclear energy, but that's true of any type of power plant.

If Greta is not an expert, why did she received so much media time and shown as an person who should be a role model based on her knowledge?

I disagree that it was "based on her knowledge". It was based on her passion and rhetoric.

How can you take an expert seriously (specially a medical one) if he/she does not recognize similar experts from another country just because some another country might be pissed?

To do their job properly, it is essential that WHO gets Chinese cooperation, and the cost of that is not recognizing Taiwan. It's choosing access to 1.4(?) billion people over 25 million.

Again, as it as a COVID thread - i agree with Infection and with some Estonian virus specialists (for example Irja Lutsar https://www.etis.ee/CV/Irja_Lutsar/est?tabId=CV_ENG ), that we have to learn to live with virus and in general have a healthier lifestyle. Of course, as life has taught - never say never and be prepared to worst.

Living with the virus, for now, means keeping one's mask on and keeping others and oneself safe.

Certainly COVID test makers and food deliverers (at least in my country) are making good profit and if WHO tells, that COVID is not dangerous, then the government also says that :).

One person's loss is another's opportunity.
 
This is sure going to help our pandemic response. Real constructive. Who wants four more years of this ****?




A few things. Burning Fauci for an awful first pitch is actually funny. 2. I think Fauci did see the limelight, got famous, started to like to hear himself talk and just kind of ran with it. I can't think of anything relevant or useful he's said in quite a long time. Maybe ever now that I think about it.

I don't really blame him. Total dork finally gets all of hollywood and the left kissing his *** (Brad Pitt for example) and then he just keeps saying things to stay relevant. Not actually saying what he thinks and believes.

Now Trump is a dumb *** *************, but I don't think Fauci has really been useful other than being a talking head filling up airspace for the last 6 months.
 
At the same time, expertise allows people to make connections and understand issues in a way not open to amateurs, and that needs to be respected.

To do their job properly, it is essential that WHO gets Chinese cooperation, and the cost of that is not recognizing Taiwan. It's choosing access to 1.4(?) billion people over 25 million.

Living with the virus, for now, means keeping one's mask on and keeping others and oneself safe.

One person's loss is another's opportunity.
I hope i quoted somewhat properly.

In general i agree with you, however it seems, that there are tendency that "University degree + fancy job title" automatically means "expert" who is above the god. Specially in a IT field but also elsewhere.
Even in medical field - i am sure that reading little bit of a user manual i can use a modern X-Ray machine with a broken monitor, keyboard and mouse while a doctor might not :). Although i read it from Wikipedia(probably not in very deep depth) i could not find is the positive or negative COVID infection decided by human, computer software or computer hardware i.e some sensor?

Of course, i know that the real life politics is what it is and doctors all over the world want visit China as tourist destination.

I agree with the wearing of the masks unless it is done in a "показуха" way.
 
Under the file of lockdowns being benign:



The underestimation of the costs of many restrictions is largely ignored. I believe it’s akin to underlying beliefs about ‘natural’ supplements and people believing that, while pharmaceuticals are created in a lab and ‘unnatural,’ supplements, on the other hand, are ‘more natural’ and therefore free of the side effects of pharmaceuticals. There are real side effects to supplements, they just don’t get the same publicity because they aren’t put through the same process of scrutiny that’s required for pharmaceuticals.

So too this. We believe that any non-pharmacological intervention is therefore good or natural, and therefore risk-free. Here’s the death chart for Australia:

0450F939-C1D7-4E6B-9E10-A96D71F0D46E.jpeg
Their 7-day rolling average of daily deaths is current 1.
 
Under the file of lockdowns being benign:

Who is saying lock downs are benign? I will happily join you in arguing against them.

The underestimation of the costs of many restrictions is largely ignored. I believe it’s akin to underlying beliefs about ‘natural’ supplements and people believing that, while pharmaceuticals are created in a lab and ‘unnatural,’ supplements, on the other hand, are ‘more natural’ and therefore free of the side effects of pharmaceuticals. There are real side effects to supplements, they just don’t get the same publicity because they aren’t put through the same process of scrutiny that’s required for pharmaceuticals.

I agree with you very strongly on natural supplements.

Do you think the epidemiologists who recommend protective measures (say, those at the CDC) are ignoring the costs of these restrictions in their calculations, or is this more of a complaint about media coverage?
 
Who is saying lock downs are benign? I will happily join you in arguing against them.

With the actions and behaviors we're currently engaged in from a societal perspective, I'd say that's a pretty strong indicator of how benign we think they are. A good place to look is California's guidelines for returning to normal. One could always theoretically argue that they know lockdown's aren't benign, but the actions indicate more strongly where this is valued, and how seriously (or not) that's considered.

Do you think the epidemiologists who recommend protective measures (say, those at the CDC) are ignoring the costs of these restrictions in their calculations, or is this more of a complaint about media coverage?

I'd answer this more indirectly. Physicians know what the true standard of care is. In a legal definition, and in court, you're held to what's considered the standard of care, and the standard of care varies by situation and location. It's what's considered the practicing standard for that specific locale. So a general surgeon may have to operate emergently on an infant in Farmington, New Mexico, and be within standard of care, but that same procedure may not fall under standard of care for a general surgeon in Los Angeles as it may need to be preformed by a pediatric surgeon. But since there is no available pediatric surgeon in Farmington, the standard changes. But then there are artificial standards of care. Standards that do not at all reflect best-evidence but do reflect common practice. These are artificial standards of care (my term). This is how people would be judged in court or in a malpractice case, even if that standard isn't based on any evidence. This is when a physician's fear, not of doing the right thing, but by appearing to do the wrong thing, leads to a change in their practice habit. For instance, someone is stating that they are suicidal, but perhaps they are malingering (using this for some other secondary gain). A patient may assert some level of power because they feel the physician is bound by certain fears (discharging a patient from the hospital when they claim they are suicidal). As physician's themselves may know very well that the person is malingering, they will be hesitant to discharge someone in that circumstance purely for how it looks on paper, even though they know otherwise, because ultimately it is lay society who judges outcomes. So out of this arises an artificial standard of care that's more reflective of societal expectation. Epidemiologists are irrelevant. The media, society, and politicians drive this vehicle. As a result, the epidemiologists (and hell, even very unqualified people) who are pushing evidence more consistent with media, society, and politician's view points are the ones that become promoted and further reinforce public opinion through availability bias. A good example of this is from a post a few pages back that I was going to respond to (may never will get to) that mentioned the importance of 'listening to the experts' such as the University of Washington model for COVID. When the hysteria was kicking up regarding millions dead in the US, I had brought up the University of Washington model a couple different times (in March and April). It was much more conservative regarding projections at the time, but there were literally no responses and absolutely nobody was talking about this model in any fashion (here or otherwise). But now that there model is updated for showing a more drastic picture for this fall/winter, it's now being talked about. And we're holding it up as 'listen to the scientists' when we weren't at all interested in listening to this science until it showed results we were more interested in.
 
With the actions and behaviors we're currently engaged in from a societal perspective, I'd say that's a pretty strong indicator of how benign we think they are. A good place to look is California's guidelines for returning to normal. One could always theoretically argue that they know lockdown's aren't benign, but the actions indicate more strongly where this is valued, and how seriously (or not) that's considered.

My interpretation of this is that you judge the (I don't know if there is a better term) comparative malignancy of covid19 versus the effects of lock downs differently than the people making decisions for the state of California. I certainly don't know enough to weigh in that on difference, but I don't think it's fair to characterize it as the California official thinking it is benign.
 
Under the file of lockdowns being benign:



The underestimation of the costs of many restrictions is largely ignored. I believe it’s akin to underlying beliefs about ‘natural’ supplements and people believing that, while pharmaceuticals are created in a lab and ‘unnatural,’ supplements, on the other hand, are ‘more natural’ and therefore free of the side effects of pharmaceuticals. There are real side effects to supplements, they just don’t get the same publicity because they aren’t put through the same process of scrutiny that’s required for pharmaceuticals.

So too this. We believe that any non-pharmacological intervention is therefore good or natural, and therefore risk-free. Here’s the death chart for Australia:

View attachment 9836
Their 7-day rolling average of daily deaths is current 1.


Im anti lockdowns


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Interesting. Maybe we’ve already hit 400,000 deaths? We know that there have been far more people infected with covid and have died from it than reported.

 
Red states aren’t reporting their numbers again. What a shock that Georgia and Florida are doing this again. Especially after Florida loosened its restrictions just a few weeks ago. What a shock

 
Watch your step getting off the bus......


Curious to know the context. I mean the spit alone was probably worth it, but who knows what that guy was saying to her or what lead up to the whole thing.
 
Honestly, if you spit in someone’s face, you get what’s coming to you. Doesn’t really matter what the scenario is, that’s a hard foul.
Strongly, strongly disagree. Context absolutely matters.
 
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