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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Hekate, Jan 23, 2020.
Man. They’re determined to kill off their most reliable voters
Because, of course
If I didn't value human life more than money, I would be okay with Trump (over 70 and overweight) and a bunch of Congress and government officials and the Supreme Court sacrificing their lives for the common good, and a whole bunch of conservative voters. But I'm not that person, and I hope I never am.
Comparing COVID-19 to automobile accidents and other illnesses that contribute to daily death tolls makes little sense as those things typically are not contagious. There is little I can do in my daily life that prevents someone getting cancer or speeding.
The question is more about if we should shut down driving for 40k lives. Now, I’m not suggesting that “lol 40k lives, who cares, lol,” but the fact that it would be a legitimate solution and it’s a question we haven’t asked, and one we’re comfortable not asking and ignoring because we wouldn’t want to live with the inconvenience it would cause to daily life.
And I still worry about the deaths that could be caused by a great depression. I think those lives matter too. I think old people's lives matter but I also think a combination of old lives and all other age lives matter even more.
If there were an extreme recession/depression and the world economy just crumbled then how many lives would we lose as a result?
These questions have relevance. It isn't black and white.
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It would be nice if the behaviors we learn during this Covid crisis (better hygiene, not going to work sick etc) help us practice the same behaviors in future flu seasons, which would save a lot of lives every year.
As for car crashes I live along I-80 in the middle of wyoming, I've long thought that Americans are more than a little reckless when it comes to taking their lives in their hands, especially in the winter.
If we don't practice proactive and widespread social distancing the death toll will be in the millions.
In the US or world wide?
Few updates from Shanghai.
- a french family arrived in my compound and was asked to leave or go thru a facility by the local residents.
- an American friend of mine was walking down the street and a local yelled at him told him to go away or go home.
- new hentavirus brewing
- my coworker told my boss I need to self quarantine at home since I came from the Philippines last week. I have already been working about a week in the office and My compound didn't require me but my boss asked so now I work at home.
- cycling is back they don't wear mask. Some locals don't wear mask.
- exotic animals now forbidden at supermarkets.
- if you see a person in the street or bus with a whith tag on their wrist and ankle it means they were infected with cov and had just recovered. You need to keep distance.
- Wuhan residents can now travel
- shanghai have 78 foreign cov as we speak and it's alarming the authorities.
Perhaps you’re misreading me. I’m not arguing a right/wrong here or dismissing deaths because something else that we don’t think about causes the same amount of deaths, but more asking about our underlying assumptions that’s guiding very strong beliefs. And I believe people feel patronized about comparisons to automobile fatalities, but to flip that around, I think people are being patronizing to automobile fatalities. My point is more asking ourselves to question, to what amount of human life sacrifice do we draw the line for shutting down the economy indefinitely for? I won’t get in to how that will cause death in other ways, but the decision doesn’t exist in a vacuum. My assumption is that for a lot of people, they’d say 5k is too many (this is independent of someone’s prediction but more a question of where they draw the line). I’m not here to argue if that’s right or wrong and I’m not passing judgments on anyone, but it warrants further evaluating that belief and looking at some comps, not as a ‘gotcha,’ but for honest discovery of how we view human life vs. life convenience, and not to believe that we value human life higher just by viewing one situation in isolation.
No telling if sacrificing the lives of the elderly would save the economy though. It's a blood sacrifice to a god who may not even exist. What a waste of life and humanity that would be.
I didn't really mean for that to be a rebuttal of anything you said, it just reminded me of that tweet I saw earlier today.
As for the rest of your post it's an interesting thought experiment. At a certain point deaths within a period of time will cause economic fallout regardless of where an individual person may draw the line for themselves I think. I'd warrant that number is a lot lower when the deaths are caused by something communicable and novel.
True. I think the Joker speaks some wisdom here, where our collective psyches remain unharmed by things that go according to plan. Flu deaths, motor vehicle accidents, alcohol related deaths, etc., are all part of a plan. We’ve lived with them. It’s the devil we know. We don’t like it, but we’re accustomed to it and not alarmed at its presence. Something like this is the devil we don’t know, it’s something unexpected, something we didn’t anticipate, and something not according to plan. An ‘unplanned’ death here causes far greater psychological dysphoria than several ‘planned’ deaths elsewhere, especially with the unknown.
The U.S. Our mortality rate has been a tick above 1% which is an outlier, but it will spike when the wave hits and we don't have the ability to manage the crisis.
If we do what we've been doing (or at least trying to do with social distancing) then that number comes way down (from millions) and it would still be terrible. Our rate of infection is starting to dramatically outpace Italy's and we have a president that has been consistently trying to downplay the threat, in addition to refusing to do the most powerful thing he could do individually to deal with this (by enacting the Defense Production Act). We don't have enough masks, let alone beds, buildings, and ventilators. We don't have antivirals and we won't have a vaccine until this is probably largely already over. There are two strains of COVID-19 and reports that people have gotten infected twice.
I don't purport to know every answer, or most of them. I do know we have to take this extremely seriously and - more than that - should've been taking this serious MONTHS ago. There's a reason that the rhetoric on the right has gone from "this is nothing" to "people will be honored to die because of money" in the span of a week.
Thought this was interesting
Agreed. And theres no telling if sacrificing the economy will save the lives of the elderly. Or how long those lives would be saved for.
In the end it could be that killing the economy saves the elderly from death by covid and that instead they die from symptoms of a dead economy.
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The elderly may be damned if you do and damned if you don't. If they do make it out of this pandemic alive, I'd rather it be due to us trying to save them vs us trying to save the economy (which isnt a guarantee in either scenario).
Besides "The Greatest Generation" didn't rise out of a good economy anyway.
Yep, people don't seem to get this. The 1% death rate is IF and WHILE you are able to accommodate all who need hospitalization and ventilators. Right now the health care system in a lot of states/countries is able to handle it. This won't be the case in a month or two.
15-20% of cases will require hospitalization. If you cannot make room in your hospitals for that inflow there will be additional deaths.
5% of cases will require ventilators. If you cannot give those people ventilators pretty much ALL of them will die. This INCLUDES YOUNG PEOPLE!!!!! Over 50% of the people in ICUs in France are under 50 years old! OVER 50%!!!
Most countries in the world have between 10 and 35 ventilators per capita. That's 0.035% for the US. With 5% needing the ventilators. If the peak happens at once most of those 5% will die! This is why the death rate in Italy is this high. It's because they are having to choose who gets a ventilator and lives and who doesn't and dies. It's because they are letting people die who wouldn't die if they had the required help.
This is what will happen if you don't flatten the curve and allow your healthcare system to spread the cases over longer period of time so more people will get the help they need.
And this doesn't even touch on ALL OTHER people with other sicknesses that might die because they won't be able to get the help they need because of overburdened healthcare system.