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That study included several models. As I recall, the model that predicted millions of deaths in the US based that prediction on a model that assumed no mitigation efforts whatsoever in the United States. That does not mean millions of deaths would have been the result of zero mitigation, in other words that the model prediction must be correct, but it should at least be pointed out that that was the assumption baked into that model.

Edit: just went back to look at the Imperial College study. The Imperial College group reported that if nothing was done by governments and individuals and the pandemic remained uncontrolled, then 510,000 would die in Britain and 2.2 million in the United States over the course of the outbreak.

If Britain and the United States pursued much more ambitious measures to mitigate the spread of coronavirus, to slow but not necessarily stop epidemic over the coming few months, they could reduce mortality by half, to 260,000 people in the United Kingdom and 1.1 million in the United States. Presently, this estimate does seem off, based on what has happened so far in the United States.

Finally, if the British government quickly went all-out to suppress viral spread — aiming to reverse epidemic growth and reduce the case load to a low level — then the number of dead in the country could drop to below 20,000. To do this, the researchers said, Britain would have to enforce social distancing for the entire population, isolate all cases, demand household quarantines of households where anyone is sick, and close all schools and universities — and do this not for weeks but for 12 to 18 months, until a vaccine is available.

The study did not offer estimates for the US, if the US also went with suppression as the strategy.
And my point is that what they published spooked us. The reaction to it is what's important. Our reactions were based on our beliefs. We undertook drastic (and costly) measures because of a potential outcome. But now that the foot is in the door, we're more comfortable with the bait-and-switch. It took a lot to get us responding a certain way, but takes much, much less to continue to keep us in a certain frame of mind with the social inertia that's now in place.From a classical conditioning perspective, COVID was the neutral stimulus until we synonymized it with its danger and mortality (again, not saying right or wrong, just that we did). Now COVID is the conditioned stimulus, and we no longer are as concerned about the mortality because we've baked the mortality response into being synonymous with COVID, even though the data between those two is starting to diverge quite a bit. However, just as the continuous ringing of the bell without presentation of food eventually led to extinction, so too, at some point, it will (or should) with COVID. But it doesn't happen immediately. And I think a lot of people are invested in perpetuating the conditioned response. The more we only hear about cases, the more we can mitigate extinction.
 
But, I’ll play devil’s advocate: how many people do you think are dying in Georgia and Florida?

I don't know that anyone can give a precise number, but it's sure an odd coincidence that Florida is seeing record numbers of pneumonia deaths.

Historical data is here. I used the same ICD10 codes as the link below uses for "pneumonia".

Florida deaths from pneumonia for an entire year (2019 not available at this link).

Florida (12) 2013 2,504
Florida (12) 2014 2,508
Florida (12) 2015 2,543
Florida (12) 2016 2,637
Florida (12) 2017 2,800
Florida (12) 2018 2,623

Current data (five months's worth) is here:

Florida 7,093 (supposedly only 2,969 covid19-related, meaning still 1,501 over a typical year, and in five months)

Georgia's numbers don't seem all that much out-of-line.
 
Well, I guess there’s that. When the data doesn’t show what we predicted or what we wanted (were hoping?), just assume they’re lying.

But, I’ll play devil’s advocate: how many people do you think are dying in Georgia and Florida?

I knew you would say that. I’m fine if the mortality rates are going down due to the virus losing its lethality, better treatments/hospitals not being overwhelmed, and demographics of those affected being different. I’m fine with people not dying. I know this might surprise some of the Fox News addicts, but liberals don’t want more people to die. But let’s not mindlessly accept the numbers and Florida and Georgia. Those two governors have lost credibility. Ron DeSantis in particular. I’m concerned that the two trumpiest governors in the nation are manipulating dats to serve their political interests.

This shouldn’t be a partisan issue folks:

 
I knew you would say that. I’m fine if the mortality rates are going down due to the virus losing its lethality, better treatments/hospitals not being overwhelmed, and demographics of those affected being different. I’m fine with people not dying. I know this might surprise some of the Fox News addicts, but liberals don’t want more people to die. But let’s not mindlessly accept the numbers and Florida and Georgia. Those two governors have lost credibility. Ron DeSantis in particular. I’m concerned that the two trumpiest governors in the nation are manipulating dats to serve their political interests.

This shouldn’t be a partisan issue folks:

Taking a cue from @infection and playing devil's advocate... are the numbers coming from the governor's office, or from federal health officials in those states?
The reason I ask is because I genuinely don't know if the governor would have opportunity to massage those numbers. I don't know how the process works for reporting.
If the governor has the ability to do something to ensure numbers are misreported, then yes, I would say you have a valid argument.
But if the numbers are coming directly from personnel/departments that the governor can't influence, this doesn't wash.
 
Taking a cue from @infection and playing devil's advocate... are the numbers coming from the governor's office, or from federal health officials in those states?
The reason I ask is because I genuinely don't know if the governor would have opportunity to massage those numbers. I don't know how the process works for reporting.
If the governor has the ability to do something to ensure numbers are misreported, then yes, I would say you have a valid argument.
But if the numbers are coming directly from personnel/departments that the governor can't influence, this doesn't wash.

The governor in Florida has already influenced the numbers. Did you read the article I linked? How do we not have questions about Florida’s data when they’ve given us so much reason to question it?
 
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While death is the worse outcome, I would like to know how many of those people who survive very bad cases of Covid-19 have outcomes that include long lasting health issues...

 
I knew you would say that. I’m fine if the mortality rates are going down due to the virus losing its lethality, better treatments/hospitals not being overwhelmed, and demographics of those affected being different. I’m fine with people not dying. I know this might surprise some of the Fox News addicts, but liberals don’t want more people to die. But let’s not mindlessly accept the numbers and Florida and Georgia. Those two governors have lost credibility. Ron DeSantis in particular. I’m concerned that the two trumpiest governors in the nation are manipulating dats to serve their political interests.

This shouldn’t be a partisan issue folks:

A few things:

- Is there something I've said that makes you think I believe this is a partisan issue? I'm a little baffled because the entirety of my postings re: COVID is related to following numbers and the scope of my professional understanding. Your jump has been that red states are unreliable with their data, so I'm admittedly a little confused when you're saying this shouldn't be a partisan issue.

- In a similar vein, who are the 'Fox News addicts'? I've engaged in some pretty substantive discussion over the course of this thread by giving significant context to a multitude of issues that warrant clinical correlation. I don't watch Fox News, but my concern is that anything presented that perhaps is at odds with current thinking and worldviews is immediately attributed to Fox News and/or Republican misinformation.
 

While death is the worse outcome, I would like to know how many of those people who survive very bad cases of Covid-19 have outcomes that include long lasting health issues...

Agreed. Some act like death is the only possible negative outcome to be worried about. It isn't

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A few things:

- Is there something I've said that makes you think I believe this is a partisan issue? I'm a little baffled because the entirety of my postings re: COVID is related to following numbers and the scope of my professional understanding. Your jump has been that red states are unreliable with their data, so I'm admittedly a little confused when you're saying this shouldn't be a partisan issue.

- In a similar vein, who are the 'Fox News addicts'? I've engaged in some pretty substantive discussion over the course of this thread by giving significant context to a multitude of issues that warrant clinical correlation. I don't watch Fox News, but my concern is that anything presented that perhaps is at odds with current thinking and worldviews is immediately attributed to Fox News and/or Republican misinformation.

So three things:

1. Yes, I question the reliability of red state data. Especially the data from Florida and Georgia. Have they not given us reason to question them?
2. I thought you were making it a partisan issue first, by making it sound like I questioned red state data because I’m a democrat. So if I misunderstood you then I apologize. It’s that red state governors have dismissed advice from medical experts in attempts to appease Trump. Two in particular have a proven record of shady dealing and Trump sycophancy. I can easily see Kemp and DeSantis cooking the numbers. DeSantis already is.
3. I wasn’t calling you a specific Fox News addict so I apologize if that’s the way it has come off. You debate things fairly well and enjoy reading your opinion.
 
This is a fairly interesting thread from a different angle. The author is breaking apart the two different curves from the states that were hit the earliest/hardest (Northeast) and the rest of the country:

 
So three things:

1. Yes, I question the reliability of red state data. Especially the data from Florida and Georgia. Have they not given us reason to question them?

There's a epidemic of supposed pneumonia in Florida of huge proportion. It reads like they are cooking the numbers to an amateur like me. The Georgian numbers look like most other states; if they are under-reporting, they are being more clever about it, but I see no reason to say Georgia is under-reporting.
 
Agreed. Some act like death is the only possible negative outcome to be worried about. It isn't

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Exactly. Quality of life is pretty important. When you’re young, especially, you don’t want debilitating conditions stretching into the future if you can avoid them. Life is tough enough.
 
Exactly. Quality of life is pretty important. When you’re young, especially, you don’t want debilitating conditions stretching into the future if you can avoid them. Life is tough enough.
When I was elementary school aged my sister would get Strep Throat at least once a year. One of the times my parents were slow to get her on antibiotics and she developed rheumatic fever. This can cause life long issues like arthritis and heart disease.

We hardly know anything about COVID-19 yet, especially potential long term effects.
 
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Good news. The president and press secretary both said that COVID is just going to disappear - they hope.

This is welcome news ahead of next April when it’s supposed to disappear overnight like a fart in the wind.
 
When I was elementary school aged my sister would get Strep Throat at least once a year. One of the times my parents were slow to get her on antibiotics and she developed rheumatic fever. This can cause life long issues like arthritis and heart disease.

We hardly know anything about COVID-19 yet, especially potential long term effects.
What’s the solution, though?

In any case, one thing I suspect we will be seeing over time is a cluster of vague, occasionally disabling, symptoms labeled “chronic COVID,” much similar to what Lyme disease has become, that gets pushed quite a bit by lay society and functional medicine practitioners, dismissed generally by the medical establishment, but elevated as a huge source of concern in news articles, retweets, and Facebook posts.
 
What’s the solution, though?

In any case, one thing I suspect we will be seeing over time is a cluster of vague, occasionally disabling, symptoms labeled “chronic COVID,” much similar to what Lyme disease has become, that gets pushed quite a bit by lay society and functional medicine practitioners, dismissed generally by the medical establishment, but elevated as a huge source of concern in news articles, retweets, and Facebook posts.
I don't really know. I mean wearing masks and being responsible about hand washing and maintaining distance as much as possible seems like the an easy thing to do that I would think everyone could embrace so that things can be open and we can go about our lives as normally as possible, but it seems that is extraordinary offensive to a bunch of people.
 
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I don't really know. I mean wearing masks and being responsible about hand washing and maintaining distance as much as possible seems like the an easy thing to do that I would think everyone could embrace so that things can be open and we can go about our lives as normally as possible, but it seems that is extraordinary offensive to a bunch of people.
I don’t disagree. My concern when this all started was that the hysteria would backfire. I’ll have to dig up the post. Obviously people have their own choices and responsibility they have to make, but the negative effects from the hysteria are very tangible.
 
I don’t disagree. My concern when this all started was that the hysteria would backfire. I’ll have to dig up the post. Obviously people have their own choices and responsibility they have to make, but the negative effects from the hysteria are very tangible.
Yeah, I mean even if this runs its course and even if a lot of people do die, this isn't going to be the downfall of human civilization. I think there are people being too crazy about how scary they think this is and a lot of people who refuse to accept it's even a concern because they are so turned off by how extreme people are freaking out about it. I think there is a pretty reasonable middle ground to be had but I don't think we're going to take it.
 
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