Debunking the "losing is bad for culture" people. To win a title, you have to suck.

Discussion in 'Utah Jazz' started by green, Mar 7, 2013.

  1. green

    green Well-Known Member

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    Teams that have played in the NBA finals since 2000:

    Miami
    OKC
    Dallas
    LA
    Bos
    Orl
    SA
    Cle
    Dal
    Mia
    Det
    NJ
    Phi
    Ind

    EVERY SINGLE TEAM HAD A TOP FIVE PICK EXCEPT FOR DALLAS, LA AND BOSTON. We are not Dallas, LA or Boston (and LA traded for Kobe at 13, drafted Bynum at 10, Boston drafted Pierce at 10, and Dallas took Dirk at 9, so all of those teams sucked to become champions as well).

    Look at the picks taken in the top five:

    Dwayne Wade
    Kevin Durant
    Russell Westbrook
    Dwight Howard
    Tim Duncan
    LeBron James
    Devin Harris
    Kenyon Martin
    Allen Iverson
    Rick Smits

    Picked 5-10:

    Dirk Nowitzski
    Andrew Bynum
    Paul Pierce
    Richard Hamilton

    Other lottery picks:

    Kobe Bryant
    Richard Jefferson

    If you don't have "losing" seasons, then none of those teams wins titles.

    What else do you need to win a title?

    Trades for very, very good players. Look at players acquired through trades:

    Tyson Chandler
    Pau Gasol
    Lamar Odom
    Ray Allen
    Kevin Garnett
    Jason Terry
    Alonzo Mourning
    Shaquille O'Neal
    Rasheed Wallace
    Jason Kidd
    Dikembe Mutumbo
    Jalen Rose
    Mark Jackson

    Then toss in a FA signing or two:

    LeBron James
    Chris Bosh
    Jason Kidd
    Hedo Turkeyglue
    Rashard Lewis
    Donyell Marshall
    Chauncy Billups

    Basically, what you need to win a title is this:

    A top five pick in the draft that is a great pick. Out of the 14 "different" teams (I say different because the Dallas, Miami and LA teams all featured different "key" players), OKC, Miami, Dallas, Boston, Orlando, San Antonio, Cleveland, Dallas, Miami, NJ, Phi, and Indiana all had a top pick turn into a superstar.

    Out of the 14 teams, only LA, Miami and Boston traded for or signed their championship teams. LA traded for Kobe and Gasol, and signed Shaq. Miami traded for Shaq and signed LeBron and Bosh. Boston traded for Garnett and Allen.

    So, losing does not make you a loser. Losing with a bad management team in place that does not draft well, makes you a loser. The Jazz are a well run organization, and have been very good at high draft picks. Look at our last four top 10 picks (I threw Burks in there to make the Jazz look good): Deron, Hayward, Kanter, Burks.

    Now, who can the Jazz model after on that list? Not LA, Miami, Dallas, or Boston. They can't bring in the free agents that those teams can. They need to follow the pattern of OKC, Orl, SA, Cle, Dallas (the old Dallas team) and NJ. All of those teams had a star they drafted (Westbrook/Durant, Howard, Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, LeBron, Harris/Dirk/Howard, Martin/Jefferson.

    Then each of those teams added through trades except SA and OKC. OKC did it through a couple of really bad years to get Harden, SA was able to draft amazingly well (luck in some ways, for example, lucky that Lopez couldn't come over right away so Parker fell to them).

    Now, where does that leave the Jazz? In a great position. Right now it appears that they may have their star in the making (Kanter). Kanter looks to be a big that you can build around. On top of that, toss in Favors and Hayward and the Jazz have an outstanding core. They need to follow the path of Orl, Cle, Dallas and NJ and add players through trades to put them over the top (as well as get rid of high priced players that will not lead to a title).

    If Utah lets Al and Paul walk, they are still in a great position in that they can turn the team over to Kanter and let him develop into "The Guy", they will be in a position to make a trade for an "over-the-top" guy (such as Tyson Chandler, Odom, Allen, Terry, Mourning, Rasheed, Kidd, Mutumbo, Mark Jackson, Jalen Rose were for their teams development into title contenders).

    Also, if Kanter develops overnight and the Jazz skyrocket up the standings, great. Fantastic. If they don't, and they end up with a top 5 pick, then great. Fantastic. We are even better.

    If you think one season of missing the playoffs is going to turn the Jazz into the Clippers, you are a moron. Sorry. With the young talent we have, one season out of the playoffs only makes us better.

    The best thing that can happen to the Jazz is Al and possibly Paul being gone next year (if he gets a deal over 12+ per year).

    Kanter is already better than both of them (which is another testament to how horrible of a coach Corbin is, that Kanter still isn't starting over Paul or Favors). Favors isn't far behind.

    For the Jazz to be a title contender, we need Hayward to improve a little bit more, have Kanter develop into a star, Favors turn into Chandler or better and turn cap space into a SF.

    We aren't that far off what other teams have done...as long as Al and Corbin aren't back. If either one of those two is back, then throw all this out the window and realize the Jazz aren't trying to win titles...just bucks.
     
    cowhide, BHP, spycam1 and 1 other person like this.
  2. Stoked

    Stoked Modstapo Staff Member

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    This is a faulty arguement due to the initial premise. There is a difference between losing and trying to lose or rooting for failure. If the Jazz try to win every game and lose every game then so be it. But rooting for failure? Pathetic. That is what is being thrown around here. Rooting for failure.

    Be honest please.
     
  3. green

    green Well-Known Member

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    You are insinuating that Jazz fans want the Jazz to turn into the Clippers. We don't. We want to turn into Orlando/SA/OKC/NJ/every other team I listed. We want to win a title, and we are smart enough (unlike Jazz fans that think getting the 8th seed is fantastic) to know that being stuck in the middle isn't progress.

    AND, most Jazz fans that talk about "failing" aren't talking about losing just to lose. Most Jazz fans are saying that they are sick of watching the wiley old vets lose to middle of the road teams and want to see the young guns play, and if that means losing, then so be it, we would have progressed further than sticking with Al for 38 mins and Kanter for 12.
     
  4. green

    green Well-Known Member

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    Let's be honest. What are your demands from the Jazz? What should their ultimate goal be, that keeps you happy and spending money/time on the Utah Jazz?
     
  5. Hartsock

    Hartsock Banned

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    So we nee to tank, pick a superstar, then make a nice trade and sign some big FA's? Good post, you have cracked the code.
     
    UGLI baby likes this.
  6. Gas

    Gas Well-Known Member

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    I tried to rep you green but can't.


    There is no point in explaining this to certain people green. Either you get it, or you don't.
     
  7. Hartsock

    Hartsock Banned

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    I think everyone on earth gets the magical formula explained here. Its just retarded to think you can plan it out and accomplish it. Its gotta be organic baby, or you need to be LA, Miami, Boston, and just get whomever you want.
     
  8. Weezur

    Weezur Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Let's tank and draft the next Greg Oden.
     
  9. Jeditiger

    Jeditiger Beer Fan Contributor

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    I want the Jazz to be competitive in every game and make the playoffs.
     
  10. ONE LOVE

    ONE LOVE PROUD SUPPORTER Staff Member

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    With the emergence of Kanter and Favors late this season, I think it's fair to say KOC and Lindsey are not stupid enough to bring Big Al back to clog up the frontline.

    Both those guys are READY.
     
  11. Hartsock

    Hartsock Banned

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    So the moral of the story is the draft is probably the smallest part of the equation. FA > trades > drafting .....thanks for wasting your afternoon doing that pointless research.
     
  12. green

    green Well-Known Member

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    With the way Kanter has played the last week, I am believing you more and more every day.
     
  13. green

    green Well-Known Member

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    That's not what I said. I said we already had our superstar, we need to get rid of the dead weight and build around that superstar.

    With what we have right now, Kanter is our potential superstar. We need to turn the team over to him (and with Hayward as well) and see what they can do. We need to quit allowing very, very good players in Millsap, Al, Mo (and in Corbin's mind), Foye, and Williams to take the bulk of the minutes.

    Once the team is turned over to our "championship potential" (because Al, Millsap, Foye, Williams x2 will never lead any team to a title) player, Kanter, then the Jazz can go to work. We can see what Kanter is, and if it takes a year for him to fully take over and we suck for a year, great, we add another piece that has championship potential.

    If Kanter blows up and is amazing year one, then great. We have a TON of capspace to go find our "over-the-top" trade to put this team over the top.

    Also, more proof that you didn't read a word I said, I never once said the Jazz had to go sign good FA's.

    I have complimented the Jazz organization in saying that they have done everything right personnel-wise, they just need to cut the safety cord from Al and Paul and other crappy vets.
     
  14. Hartsock

    Hartsock Banned

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    I read every word, Utah is not a FA destination so dont plan on signing a superstar, as far as trades go generally good players have some say as to what happens, so dont plan on getting a great player in a trade without giving up a ton if not all of our young core. Tha Lakers get great trades like that because well, they are the lakers.
     
  15. ONE LOVE

    ONE LOVE PROUD SUPPORTER Staff Member

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    wow.. really? ahh... Alaska.
     
  16. Hartsock

    Hartsock Banned

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    Well, my inuit translator did
     
  17. BabyPeterzz

    BabyPeterzz Late Stage Rebuilder Contributor

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    Last I checked we have 2 top 5 picks already without tanking. Hell, trading DWill was as close to tanking as you get, but still trying to win game...... and we still got a #3 pick that wasn't even our own.
     
  18. green

    green Well-Known Member

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    You are an idiot. What team made it to the NBA finals that didn't draft a superstar?

    The most important thing in basketball is don't get stuck in the middle. That is point #1.

    Point #2, is when you drop to the bottom, draft well. Without good drafting, you will never be a contender.

    Point #3 is, after you draft well, if you are a big market, sign your pieces. If you aren't a big market (as most teams are), trade for your pieces.

    So, if you are LA, Chi, NY, Miami, or Dallas (post-Cuban complete takeover) it looks like this:

    drafting>FA>trades.

    If you are every other team out there (such as the Utah Jazz) it looks like this:

    drafting>trades>FA

    I'm just saying that the Jazz have tried to do it this way:

    trades>FA>drafting

    and that will never work.

    They have good draft picks. They need to let those trades and FA signings that didn't work out leave and go to the tried and true method of building a title contender:

    drafting>trades>FA.

    The good news is, they are in perfect position to do this. They have drafted EXTREMELY well the last few years. They have picked up Favors, Kanter, Hayward, and Burks.

    They have potential to do some BIG trades with the cap room they will have this summer.

    They just have to be disciplined enough, and have enough faith in the young guns to NOT get caught up in the FA game. That means, do NOT resign any member of this team the will be a FA unless it is for a bargain deal (less than 5 million, except for Millsap, but even he is a HUGE risk. If you resign Millsap to 10 million a year, you will have to get rid one of the core 4. You have to be POSITIVE that he will be better than all four of those players).
     
  19. Beantown

    Beantown Well-Known Member

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    Don't the Jazz have the most lottery picks on a team right now? It's got to be pretty close.
     
  20. Hartsock

    Hartsock Banned

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    Yep, so why the hell would we need to tank, why is losing good? We have what we want.
     

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