Democracy after Trump

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by The Thriller, Dec 1, 2018.

  1. The Thriller

    The Thriller Well-Known Member

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    I’ve been reflecting on a few books I’ve read lately:

    Fascism (Madeline Albright)
    Escape from Democracy (Fromm)
    How Democracies Die (one of the best I’ve read in years)

    And I worry that we’re basing all of our hopes on returning to normalcy on getting rid of Trump. When in reality, “normalcy” was already under assault for years.

    Whether Trump leaves through impeachment, resignation, or political defeat, the wounds left on American democracy by republicans over the past 10 years will need to be healed or we’ll continue our slide into kletopcracy.

    After Obama won in 2008, we saw unprecedented attempts of voter suppression, racism, and obstruction from republicans. Never has a major political leader called for “making a duly elected president a one-term president” like McConnell did in early 2009. For 8 years after we saw birtherism, nonstop filibustering of legislation that republicans previously sponsored (Dream Act), and attacks on American Democratic norms like confirmation of judges (federal and in the case of Scalia, Supreme).

    Let me be clear, trying to worsen a recession in order to hurt the president isn’t normal. Refusing to work with the president on issues like health care and immigration to prevent him a legislative win isn’t normal. Refusing to hold a hearing on a judge for nearly a year isn’t normal. Colluding with Russia to win an election isn’t normal. Diminishing voting rights and gubernatorial power because you lost isn’t normal.

    In 2016, clearly, at the very least, Russia put a finger on the scale. Now it’s becoming clearer that the Trump campaign worked with the Russians to defeat Hillary. Another attack on democratic norms.

    Finally, after a harsh rebuke at the midterms, republicans in defeat do this:



    My fear is that even After Trump is gone, the GOP is so focused on power and ruining the game if they lose, that American democracy will continue to erode. How long can these anti-democratic tactics be played before it breaks our game of democracy?

    Trump is merely a symptom of the GOP’s anti-democratic problem. Rather than self-reflect and adjust the platform to appeal to voters, they’re just throwing away the game.

    Democrats don’t do this. They don’t ruin the game when they lose. Yet another glaring difference between the two parties that need to be emphasized when poorly informed or cynical people try and paint both parties as “the same.” Democrats don’t work to marginalize minorities or prevent people from voting. This is a very real assault on our dear democracy that must be repudiated by every thinking American that values our democracy. Merely getting rid of trump won’t fix this.

    What do you guys think?
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  2. Zombie

    Zombie Well-Known Member

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    I was going to post a new thread but this seems to be a good place for this story.
    This is what actual voter fraud looks like btw.



    https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...209f6-f406-11e8-80d0-f7e1948d55f4_story.html?

    @Thriller- You are right that this kind of antagonism towards democracy didn't start and won't end with Trump. The Republican party as an institution either needs to be completely reformed or failing that dismantled altogether.
     
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  3. DutchJazzer

    DutchJazzer Well-Known Member

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    lol
     
  4. Red

    Red Well-Known Member

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    Trumpism is inherently anti-democratic, because it is exclusive of large segments of the American population. Trumpism basically identifies any American (notably focusing on the media in the process) that opposes him, as anti-American. Trump's definition of the nation cannot include those who he describes as the enemy of the people. When the opponents of Donald Trump=the enemy of the people, and no longer the loyal opposition, no longer inclusive fellow Americans; and if through voter ID laws and gerrymandering, one party loads the dice for winning both the Senate, and through the electoral collage advantages, the Presidency, and when the president identifies Democrats, and media that does not act like Trump-loving state media, and minorities, and liberals, etc. as excluded, as anti-American, (and does so daily, in mantra-style via Twitter), then sure enough, the Democracy of our ideals is gravely endangered.

    Overcoming these trends is best accomplished via broad based social movements that render rectification of minority rule something that reaches a critical mass of inevitability. So, where is that going to come from? I don't know yet. I don't know how far away the horizon for that is, but I think the answer has to come from a broad based social movement of sufficient power to carry the day.

    Really, its from conditions such as the conditions @The Thriller describes that revolutions are born. Those are not always broadbased, they may be more often minority led, and, indeed that is what the Republican minority are attempting. But I believe they would be weak against people taking to the streets to a degree not seen yet in American history. Something has to trigger a movement of that size, to that degree. Government can be brought to account if enough people demonstrate it is inevitable that that is what is going to happen, like it or not. I don't know if that will happen soon. But for sure it will happen. Otherwise, we may face a permanent minority rule, and I believe that is not what we think of in our ideal of American democracy.

    Are we still idealistic enough to believe we can overthrow plutocracy and "save" the experiment that is our nation? I believe that is what we are being asked to decide, whether we know it or not. If we ask ourselves how do we want History to judge us, then we must believe we have to effect that revolution, if we expect a good judgement. I don't want to be part of the generation judged as the one that said "who cares?"

    Among our immediate problems, Post-Trump, is the alternative reality of Fox News, with its ability to weave conspiracy theory, and turn fact and reality on its head. It's a pretty dangerous development to entrance a sizable % of the electorate into a paranoid state of deep state fears. Deliberately doing that to the electorate is reprehensible, and injurious to democracy, even as we butt up against the right of free speech. To preserve the latter, we must show the former to be the lie that it truly represents. Make it crystal clear that powerful voices like Hannity are shallow fakes.

    Really, we face an enormous challenge putting Trump behind us, while battling fake realities, and overcoming minority rule. No sure victory when we realize what this transition to Post Truth is doing to us.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  5. DutchJazzer

    DutchJazzer Well-Known Member

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    lolz! this thread is pure epic gold

    left wingers, when the vote goes their way. yah democracy.

    when the vote goes against them boo democracy!

    ROFLOLING RIGHT CHUR!
     
  6. infection

    infection Well-Known Member Staff Member 2018 Award Winner

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    I think there’s one other obvious way that he can leave office that you left off. And, no, I’m not referring to assasination.
     
  7. DutchJazzer

    DutchJazzer Well-Known Member

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    what will thriller do when trump gets relected. cus trump outpreformed most presidents in midterms even his beloved commie international socialist hero obama
     
  8. Red

    Red Well-Known Member

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    I decided to fix this, since this particular poster was spinning an alternate reality, more or less diametrically opposed to the truth of the matter, as seen in Michigan and Wisconsin:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/el...crats-fume-over-last-minute-gop-power-n943086

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...20dbd0-f72c-11e8-8d64-4e79db33382f_story.html

    Democracy, anyone?
     
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  9. Red

    Red Well-Known Member

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  10. DutchJazzer

    DutchJazzer Well-Known Member

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    lol it is the left having a temper tatrum. and protesting and investigating and screaming muh russia

    well this is democracy. yes it is ****** the majority gets to decide for the minority!

    **** DEMOCRACY!
     
  11. Red

    Red Well-Known Member

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    @The Thriller, here you go...

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/john-dingell-how-restore-faith-government/577222/

    "The end of minority rule in our legislative and executive branches. The Great Compromise, as it was called when it was adopted by the Constitution’s Framers, required that all states, big and small, have two senators. The idea that Rhode Island needed two U.S. senators to protect itself from being bullied by Massachusetts emerged under a system that governed only 4 million Americans.

    Today, in a nation of more than 325 million and 37 additional states, not only is that structure antiquated, it’s downright dangerous. California has almost 40 million people, while the 20 smallest states have a combined population totaling less than that. Yet because of an 18th-century political deal, those 20 states have 40 senators, while California has just two. These sparsely populated, usually conservative states can block legislation supported by a majority of the American people. That’s just plain crazy....

    ....My friend Norm Ornstein, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, sees a demographic shift coming that will effectively transform us into two countries. He tells me that “in 2050, 70 percent of Americans will be living in just 15 states. That 70 percent will then have 30 senators, and the remaining 30 percent of the people, mainly those living in the smallest and poorest states, will have 70 senators.”
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
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  12. Stars Fan

    Stars Fan Well-Known Member

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    Just finished reading "How Democracies Die". I think it should be required reading for everyone.

    Disturbing stuff really, as far as how fragile they paint American Democracy.

    But what struck me is the discussion of the demographic change that is shaping our politics. As the Republican party represents, and courts, the shrinking white working class, it clings to power with ever more desperate tactics, gerrymandering, voter suppression, legislative overreach, court packing, executive fiat, etc. The recommendation from the authors was for the Democrats, representing a growing minority soon to be majority non white electorate, return to status quo ante norms of restraint and respect. They warn against reciprocal use of political hard ball, as being counter productive. I don't know what the answer might be, but I don't hold out much hope that a one sided call for decency and decorum will change the polity and save democracy. Addressing racism and wealth inequality will be more messy than the gentleman's game of civil politics when one side is entrenched and dedicated to winning at all costs.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using JazzFanz mobile app
     
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  13. Zombie

    Zombie Well-Known Member

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    I can't imagine the political instability this will cause, especially if the GOP continues on their path of power at all costs.
     
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  14. Red

    Red Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, who can really imagine doing away with the Senate, as well. The GOP legislatures in Wisconsin and Michigan have acted to diminish the power of the newly elected Democratic governor, and other newly elected state officers. That's as blatant a power grab, contrary to how the electorate voted, as I have ever seen. Reinforces a "my vote doesn't count" mentality. Really, what the GOP did there is an "in your face" complete repudiation of democracy. Really cannot spin it any other way.

    Here is an interesting accessment, that sees hopeful trends, but also recognizes the intense struggle ahead:

    http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176503/tomgram:_ben_fountain,_"very_close_to_a_complete_victory"

    "This thing Trump was selling, this white-nationalist-freak-out-throwback special, played well enough to the base to flip Senate seats in North Dakota, Indiana, and Missouri, all states Trump won by big margins in 2016, as well as Florida’s closely contested Senate seat. But here’s the real shocker, the development that made this midterm “transformational,” as reported by Stanley Greenberg in the New York Times, based on a Democracy Corpselection night survey: the Democrats’ biggest gains in 2018 came in rural America. Greenberg also relied on an Edison exit poll for CNN that showed the Republican margin in rural areas shrinking by double digits and a Catalist poll indicating a seven-point shrinkage.

    “Exciting” the base seems to have come at a cost: a 13-point swing by white working-class women, a 14-point swing by white working-class men, and a 7-point swing among all men. While Trump’s Twitter account was acting like the social media equivalent of a spastic colon, Democrats were pushing a decidedly non-hysterical message focused on health care (coverage for preexisting conditions, preserving Obamacare, and protecting Medicare and Medicaid) and basic economic fairness. As for Trump’s manifest unfitness for office, smart Democrats assumed the president himself would pound home that message.....

    ......Trump lost in 2018, but he remains nearly as powerful as ever. He’s a sitting president with a ferociously loyal base, a Senate majority that’s about to get bigger, and a federal judiciary that hews further to the right with each new raft of appointments. In the days since the election he’s shown no moderating tendencies, instead threatening the incoming House Democratic majority with a “warlike posture,” firing Attorney General Jeff Sessions, illegally“appointing” a sketchy acting attorney general, further defying the Refugee Act of 1980, banning a CNN reporter from the White House, and defending Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman in the state-sponsored murder of dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

    Trump is still Trump, and America is still America. In the days after the election, wildfires raged through northern California, leaving scores dead and many thousands homeless, and in the country’s 307th mass shooting in the first 313 days of 2018, a gunman killed 13 people at the Borderline Bar & Grill in Thousand Oaks, California.

    Welcome to the struggle for the country’s soul. We haven’t seen anything yet".
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 6:00 AM
  15. Red

    Red Well-Known Member

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    This is absurd. Getting sick of this anti-democratic ****.

    https://www.salon.com/2018/12/06/no...tions-amid-fraud-investigation-in-house-race/

    North Carolina Republicans are trying to push through a bill that would give them control over every county’s election board in election years.

    State Rep. David Lewis, a Republican who chairs the elections committee, introduced a bill Monday amid an ongoing fraud investigation into the U.S. House race in North Carolina’s 9th district.

    The bill would require every county’s election board to be chaired by a member of the party with the highest number of registered voters in odd-numbered years, and by a member of the party with the second-highest number of registered voters in even-numbered years.


    Since North Carolina has more registered Democrats than Republicans -- and since elections occur in even-numbered years -- Republicans would be in charge of every election board in every election year.
     
  16. str8line

    str8line Well-Known Member Contributor

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    A criminal element is emboldened in the age of Trump. Type A rich white dudes with no sense of decency. We're becoming a third-world country. I'm following local politics especially concerning Utah's growth and its developers and it is apparent that there's a ton of douchebags running things in a half-assed, rich-connected-growth-at-all-costs mentality. There have always been guys like this but as our population grows there are more of them and their selfish decisions have a huge impact on so many people... people who believe in them(immoral type-A dudes) as some sort of homage or aspiration to being "successful".
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 8:26 PM
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  17. Harambe

    Harambe Well-Known Member Contributor

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    Maybe it's just time for a divorce. We've been together a couple hundred years... we've had a good run.
     
  18. fishonjazz

    fishonjazz Well-Known Member Contributor 2018 Award Winner

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    Lol. That's some sneaky **** right there

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app
     
  19. DutchJazzer

    DutchJazzer Well-Known Member

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    democracy sucks! republicans dont like democracy!

    i also dont like democracy! a policy of democracy is ****
     
  20. NPC D4617

    NPC D4617 Well-Known Member

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    True. Democrats get the house and the unruly children since they are the bitches.
     

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