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Evolution - A serious question.

TroutBum

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I know we've had this discussion before, but I think it needs to happen again.

I would honestly like to know if YOU believe in evolution. That is, do you think that Man descended from Apes? If not, why? If so, why? I expect a lot of religion to come into the conversation, but I'm not interested in a bunch of Mormon/Religion bashing, so please keep that crap out of here. I only bring this topic up for discussion because my wife and I had a very long talk about it last night, and we are like oil and water on the subject. Her ideas and beliefs are exact opposites of mine, and since I'm never wrong, I just want to see how many stupid people there are out there. So, tell me your thoughts, please. Please be specific without being too wordy (pointing at you, Loggrad) or using words/logic/science that nobody understands. (ahem, Colton, OneBrow)

Thanks in advance,

Me.
 
I know we've had this discussion before, but I think it needs to happen again.

I would honestly like to know if YOU believe in evolution. That is, do you think that Man descended from Apes? If not, why? If so, why? I expect a lot of religion to come into the conversation, but I'm not interested in a bunch of Mormon/Religion bashing, so please keep that crap out of here. I only bring this topic up for discussion because my wife and I had a very long talk about it last night, and we are like oil and water on the subject. Her ideas and beliefs are exact opposites of mine, and since I'm never wrong, I just want to see how many stupid people there are out there. So, tell me your thoughts, please. Please be specific without being too wordy (pointing at you, Loggrad) or using words/logic/science that nobody understands. (ahem, Colton, OneBrow)

Thanks in advance,

Me.

So you want common ground so you can align yourself with the more intellectual of the board, but you don't want so much intellectualism that you end up being confused and alienated... you know thats how the holocaust started.

I figured I'd enact Godwin's law early.

I like the idea of evolution, and I like the idea of religion... its when they mix that I reach a mental state where all I want to do is sleep.
 
So you want common ground so you can align yourself with the more intellectual of the board, but you don't want so much intellectualism that you end up being confused and alienated... you know thats how the holocaust started.

I figured I'd enact Godwin's law early.

I like the idea of evolution, and I like the idea of religion... its when they mix that I reach a mental state where all I want to do is sleep.

Well, so much for this thread.
 
It's pretty hard to deny that evolution exists.

And I'm fairly sure God's design would be more complex than could be adequately described in a few Bible verses. The problem, as I see it, is two-fold. One: Man, who can use just a tiny fraction of their brain power, somehow feel like they can understand God, his motives, and his methods. Two: Some people (on both sides of the issue) automatically assume that science and religion are somehow mutually exclusive.

There you go. An unintelligent answer to your question.
 
I know we've had this discussion before, but I think it needs to happen again.

I would honestly like to know if YOU believe in evolution. That is, do you think that Man descended from Apes? If not, why? If so, why? I expect a lot of religion to come into the conversation, but I'm not interested in a bunch of Mormon/Religion bashing, so please keep that crap out of here. I only bring this topic up for discussion because my wife and I had a very long talk about it last night, and we are like oil and water on the subject. Her ideas and beliefs are exact opposites of mine, and since I'm never wrong, I just want to see how many stupid people there are out there. So, tell me your thoughts, please. Please be specific without being too wordy (pointing at you, Loggrad) or using words/logic/science that nobody understands. (ahem, Colton, OneBrow)

Thanks in advance,

Me.

We share a common ancestor.
 
That's an interesting observation since I didn't say if I agreed with it or not.

You're gonna start to play the conservatard card here?

I think Bronco's post was spot on, why would god create a world observably governed by rules he didn't create and weren't a part of his plan? Is it even possible for god to create a functioning world without science? Or without evolution for that matter...
 
Well, we know that God created man (the first man) in his own image, this is a fact. Yet, yes evolution happened, so where was the first man, Adam? We can then conclude that God looks like an early primate, possibly Orangutan esque.

- Craig
 
I know we've had this discussion before, but I think it needs to happen again.

I would honestly like to know if YOU believe in evolution. That is, do you think that Man descended from Apes? If not, why? If so, why? I expect a lot of religion to come into the conversation, but I'm not interested in a bunch of Mormon/Religion bashing, so please keep that crap out of here. I only bring this topic up for discussion because my wife and I had a very long talk about it last night, and we are like oil and water on the subject. Her ideas and beliefs are exact opposites of mine, and since I'm never wrong, I just want to see how many stupid people there are out there. So, tell me your thoughts, please. Please be specific without being too wordy (pointing at you, Loggrad) or using words/logic/science that nobody understands. (ahem, Colton, OneBrow)

Thanks in advance,

Me.

We have something in common. I, too, am never wrong. And I am never too wordy, and since I am never wrong, well then you are.

:)

FWIW I think evolution is a natural process that we do not really understand. There are lots of gaps in the fossil record. There are great leaps in many places that have to be made, and no really good explanations for the genetic differences among supposedly related species. I think it is too simplistic to explain genetic variation with mutation and natural selection alone. The odds of that ever yielding something worthwhile enough to create a new structure that gets passed along (since it is usually not enough to have a genetic mutation in one donor of genetic material) are just astronomical. But there is no doubt that mutation occurs (cancer is technically a mutation, specifically the part of the gene controlling cell division and death), and is likely a factor in the evolutionary processes.

I have a very different and radical idea concerning God and evolution. But I will wait until later in the discussion to decide if I want to share it.




Don't want to be too wordy you know, and overload poor trouts limited intellect.

;)
 
Yes, I believe in evolution and No Craig, Adam being the first human is not FACT but a belief. There have been many fossils found of men much older than Adam.
 
Yes, I believe in evolution and No Craig, Adam being the first human is not FACT but a belief. There have been many fossils found of men much older than Adam.

Part of my position is that the Bible was written, compiled, edited, and translated (over and over) by men. Men who had far less understanding of physical science than we have today - even though there is so much we still don't know or understand. We can't even come to a consensus on how it all came to be.

I'll use the simplistic analogy of trying to explain brain surgery to a 2 year old. You can (if you happen to know brain surgery) either explain it in the most rudimentary terms, so that they understand the basic concept, or you can explain it in intricate detail, and they will be completely unable to process it.

That's my opinion. God gave someone a basic rundown, and we have a story that's been run through the filter of generation after generation.
 
So far, so good. Take whoever is trolling Craig and SimpleTool out of the thread, and it's really going places.

I'd be interested to read your take on science and religion, Logg -- I wonder if it's close to what I think. Good points Bronco, keep talking. Cowhide and Archie, let's hear some more about why, if it pleases you.

As for me, in short, I think evolution makes sense both from a religious and scientific standpoint. Clearly I'm no scientist, and I'm far from a religious scholar, but from what I know and what I think I know, it all fits together perfectly.
 

There was a moment in Mormon history, in the 1950s, when some folks "in the leadership" were about to put the LDS firmly in the camp of the Bible-believing fundamentalist christians.

The infallible, spirit-of-God-breathed Word.

For one hundred and twenty years the LDS could go either with Joseph Smith's several versions of the Creation story, well, let's say as found in modern LDS scripture or could just wave a hand at the creation story and believe it might contain errors or changes made by man. . . . and a rising generation of LDS scientists were coming up more in the latter camp, believing the "Science" was superior somehow.

Henry Eyring, who could spin yarns about Albert Einstein. . . like "Albert Einstein didn't know beans. . . . . (audience audibly goes 'gasp'). . . . As we were walking across the commons at Princeton Albert saw some beans sprouting and asked me 'what are those?'", entered the dispute. Being the brother-in-law of Spencer W. Kimball, then an apostle of the LDS, he got a lot of invitations to talk to various church groups about things like the issues of faith and science.

He would say "I don't know how God did, but I know He did it" while opening the door to a less literal interpretation of the creation story. And he turned the tide for the LDS, who today mostly do believe in evolution in some manner but excluding the link to the skeletal or genetic specimens of a million or so years ago.

I noticed Trout's complaint about how his wife is one of the more steadfast of LDS believers, which allusion I interpret as being a religious literalist. Probably wants to be a housewife/mother sort with time to go to ward functions. And while I have indeed been annoyed sometimes by his speculations about who I am, one possibility exists that his wife has skimped on groceries lately and bought herself a laptop and a whole different ISP, and gone online as a "babe" or something.

But let me tell you how it all really is. Any good LDS should properly be in this orbit. Afterall, Brigham Young said Adam was brought here from another world, and that God brought all kinds of plants and critters here from those other worlds too. And as Parley P. Pratt, an aspiring scientific scholar of the mid nineteenth century and an LDS apostle as well, put forth in his Science: Key to Theology , the various specimens of humans with their less than Godlike features and proportions are evolutionary results of transgressions over the ages. Other aspiring scientists with the ability to knowitall, have variously offered as explanations that there were several earlier attempts at placing mankind here on earth, all of which failed just like ours almost did with the exceptions of Enoch and Noah.

But, bottom line, Mormons can believe the creation story is something of a allegory dumbed down for, or by, the mere humans, or practically anything else they want to.

At any rate, this whole Brigham concept would give the scientists lots of lattitude for "missing links" and gaps in the geologic fossil record, and a whole lot more time for the basic principles of biological genetics to operate, and you really don't need to just throw out the babe of religion with the bathwater of the millenia of gossipers, ignorant speculators, and pious knowitalls like me.

And by the way, that whole strategy laid down in "Fascinating Womanhood" just never did address the issue of exactly how frustrating it is for an intelligent woman to be hitched to a troutbum.
 
Thanks for that post Hopper, I was hoping you'd make an appearance. I'm interested to know what your alter-ego has planned for this thread.

I noticed Trout's complaint about how his wife is one of the more steadfast of LDS believers, which allusion I interpret as being a religious literalist.

When did I say anything about my wife being a steadfast LDS believer, let alone complaining about it?

Probably wants to be a housewife/mother sort with time to go to ward functions.

I have two young kids and my wife works two days a week, and loves working. On the flip side, you'd be hard pressed to catch her dead at a ward function. You're 0-2 so far.

And while I have indeed been annoyed sometimes by his speculations about who I am, one possibility exists that his wife has skimped on groceries lately and bought herself a laptop and a whole different ISP, and gone online as a "babe" or something.

Ya, I have no idea what you're saying here. You sound like a man of experience though.
 
Do you believe in an all-powerful God? If so, do you believe he created man in his own image? If so, how do you think he did that? Did he point his finger and *ZAP*, man was made, or did he/she use science to mold man into his image? I look at it like this: A master potter can create beautiful works of art from a lump of clay. That is, he takes that lump of clay (insert whatever scientific term you want to describe early humans) and over time, creates it/molds it into a finished product. Wouldn't an all powerful God do the same thing? I have a much easier time believing that God used evolution to create man than a magic finger *ZAP*, which is essentially what the Bible and other scriptures tell us.

Blech, I suck at trying to explain myself on here.
 
Do you believe in an all-powerful God? If so, do you believe he created man in his own image? If so, how do you think he did that? Did he point his finger and *ZAP*, man was made, or did he/she use science to mold man into his image? I look at it like this: A master potter can create beautiful works of art from a lump of clay. That is, he takes that lump of clay (insert whatever scientific term you want to describe early humans) and over time, creates it/molds it into a finished product. Wouldn't an all powerful God do the same thing? I have a much easier time believing that God used evolution to create man than a magic finger *ZAP*, which is essentially what the Bible and other scriptures tell us.

Blech, I suck at trying to explain myself on here.

Nah, you do alright.

Some Scientists believe in a singular incomprehensible event called the "Big Bang". It is the same thing as saying God (or Nature) just went ZAP somehow.

We really haven't got a lot of alternatives.

If you're LDS working with the notion of an all-powerful glorified Man you're probably letting loose the LDS concept that God follows natural law in all He does. The LDS concept of the Godhed, with the pre-mortal Christ being the Word/Creator under the instruction of the Heavenly Father there are some logical conflicts even though it does work pretty smoothly at first. If God was like us once, and there were earlier worlds and such, it becomes a matter of discussing what the very first God did and how He did it in the first place. . . . but the modern LDS have decided to go with the general Christians and just say Christ made it all. . . . Anyway, the kind of gods that follow laws rather than create them can't really tell us why the laws are what they are. . . . .

But since we're all sorta trapped within our own skulls for our notions of things, and since we really can't just see very far or know much about it all, I consider your view as plausible if not likely. In any event, from my limited studies in DNA and inheritance it's pretty clear to me that there are at least two fortuitous events in the DNA chronologies. There are whole sets of functional proteins that seem to have been clipped from remote species and inserted into ours, so that our DNA looks like we're directly related to yeasts or snakes. We would still have a hard time inserting such large systems into genes with such otherwise dissimilar content and preserving their functionality. . . . It could happen on some remote chance basis where species are in continual close contact, like yeast growing on our skin for millions of years. . . . but who knows, there might have been some organized intelligence at work too.
 
I know we've had this discussion before, but I think it needs to happen again.

I would honestly like to know if YOU believe in evolution. That is, do you think that Man descended from Apes?

Hard to take this thread seriously when you stop reading because of the third sentence.
 
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